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Arno Töll 08-03-2012 09:52 PM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
Hi,

On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install
> image and a DVD image for desktop installations.

Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are
these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure
(virtually) nobody notices once we drop it.


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Matt Zagrabelny 08-03-2012 10:03 PM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Arno Töll <arno@debian.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote:
>> Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install
>> image and a DVD image for desktop installations.
>
> Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are
> these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure
> (virtually) nobody notices once we drop it.

I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous
and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives
either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size
(perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that.

-mz


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Michael Biebl 08-03-2012 10:24 PM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
On 04.08.2012 00:03, Matt Zagrabelny wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Arno Töll <arno@debian.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote:
>>> Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install
>>> image and a DVD image for desktop installations.
>>
>> Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are
>> these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure
>> (virtually) nobody notices once we drop it.

Maybe this wasn't entirely obvious. I didn't say to drop CD images
completely. Just that CD1 is no longer sufficient to provide a full
desktop environment installation and instead promote an alternative
installation image for desktop installations.

> I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous
> and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives
> either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size
> (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that.

That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would
provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes
a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE
(and maybe other alternatives) on that image.

Michael



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Jamie White 08-03-2012 10:56 PM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
On 03/08/2012 23:24, Michael Biebl wrote:

On 04.08.2012 00:03, Matt Zagrabelny wrote:

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Arno Töll <arno@debian.org> wrote:

Hi,

On 03.08.2012 23:28, Michael Biebl wrote:

Seriously, I'd just drop our CD1 installs and only provide a net-install
image and a DVD image for desktop installations.

Is there any serious survey how established DVD drives (and writers) are
these days? CD images might be obsolete some day, but we should be sure
(virtually) nobody notices once we drop it.

Maybe this wasn't entirely obvious. I didn't say to drop CD images
completely. Just that CD1 is no longer sufficient to provide a full
desktop environment installation and instead promote an alternative
installation image for desktop installations.


I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous
and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives
either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size
(perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that.

That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would
provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes
a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE
(and maybe other alternatives) on that image.

Michael



Also, with the package survey, could you just work out what packages
tend to be downloaded together and use that to make specialised CDs for
a purpose, instead of numbered CDs.


Jamie


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Yao Wei (魏銘廷) 08-04-2012 03:29 AM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
IMHO, Package downloader for *offline* installation instead of
full-desktop-featured CD images. And I think it could be good to build
their own installation images using jigsaw (or downloads to their own
hard drive) before offline installation. It also promotes the use of
on-line installation and decrease the number of
use-once-then-throw-away optical media.

For default desktop, is it OK to separate into different desktop
systems? Debian should give people choice for their taste instead of a
default option.

--
Yao Wei


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Josselin Mouette 08-04-2012 09:09 AM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
Le samedi 04 août 2012 * 00:24 +0200, Michael Biebl a écrit :
> > I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous
> > and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives
> > either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size
> > (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that.
>
> That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would
> provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes
> a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE
> (and maybe other alternatives) on that image.

AFAIK debian-cd now produces 1 GiB, 2 GiB and 4 GiB images for use with
USB sticks.

--
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: :' :
`. `'
`-


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Josselin Mouette 08-04-2012 09:10 AM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
Le vendredi 03 août 2012 * 23:28 +0200, Michael Biebl a écrit :
> And in wheezy+1(or 2,...), when XFCE has outgrown CD1, we switch to E17,
> or whatever the tasksel maintainers prefer at that time. Sounds like a
> great plan to base our default desktop on the size of a CD or the mood
> of a single maintainer and switch arbitrarily between releases.

Since lenny, our default installation has always been about the mood of
a single maintainer. This is for example why we still don’t have tmpfs
by default.

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Cyril Brulebois 08-04-2012 10:18 AM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> (04/08/2012):
> This is for example why we still don’t have tmpfs by default.

Your example is wrong.

On a freshly-installed system:
tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=161324k)

Mraw,
KiBi.

Roger Leigh 08-04-2012 11:10 AM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 12:18:45PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> (04/08/2012):
> > This is for example why we still don’t have tmpfs by default.
>
> Your example is wrong.
>
> On a freshly-installed system:
> tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=161324k)

This is only until sysvinit migrates to testing though. We did
(regrettably, IMO) change back the default.


Roger

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Steve McIntyre 08-04-2012 02:06 PM

tasksel: Default desktop: Gnome→Xfce
 
Joss wrote:
>Le samedi 04 août 2012 Ã* 00:24 +0200, Michael Biebl a écrit :
>> > I don't know about serious surveys, but flash drives are ubiquitous
>> > and have large storage. Some (many?) laptops don't have optical drives
>> > either. For D-I, I would pick the most common USB flash drive size
>> > (perhaps 2.0 GB) and target that.
>>
>> That sounds like an interesting idea. Even if a default DVD-RW would
>> provide more space, having only 1 GB instead of 4.4 GB to download makes
>> a difference. 2.0 GB would even probably be enough to fit GNOME and KDE
>> (and maybe other alternatives) on that image.
>
>AFAIK debian-cd now produces 1 GiB, 2 GiB and 4 GiB images for use with
>USB sticks.

We don't *yet*. The code is there (as mentioned in the DebConf BoF),
but I've not yet seen a consensus over exactly what people
want. Currently, I'm thinking an extra 2GB image would be useful. We
*do* already have a 4GB image (the first DVD image is deliberately
down-sized to 4GB) and CD#1 is close-ish to 1GB.

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lists asking us to send them to you.


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