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Old 07-21-2012, 02:48 PM
Philip Ashmore
 
Default Debian stickers

Hi there.

Has anyone thought of making Debian stickers for
1. products that work with Debian
2. products that can have Debian installed on them

This would need some kind of database detailing products and any issues
associated with them.


These could be grouped by company, country of origin, application etc.

Maybe there could also be an offenders top ten list for companies that
aren't bothered
1. providing the software they developed using Debian or GPL code
without build instructions

2. closed source firmware

I know I would have liked to see a page on the installation process that
told me how well the PC I was installing Debian on was supported in
terms of drivers and features.


For unidentified or new hardware it could offer to add the PC to a
database where users of the same make/model could go to track updates in
driver selection etc, or even do it for them.


Thoughts?

Philip Ashmore


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Old 07-21-2012, 05:17 PM
Neil Williams
 
Default Debian stickers

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:48:07 +0100
Philip Ashmore <contact@philipashmore.com> wrote:

> I know I would have liked to see a page on the installation process that
> told me how well the PC I was installing Debian on was supported in
> terms of drivers and features.
>
> For unidentified or new hardware it could offer to add the PC to a
> database where users of the same make/model could go to track updates in
> driver selection etc, or even do it for them.
>
> Thoughts?

Many similar ideas have been and gone over the years, nobody has
managed to collate the data and make it work. Are you volunteering?

The Linux Hardware Database is long gone. http://linuxhardware.net/ has
a noticeable lack of data, just a set of links to various wikis. Then
you'd have to deal with the whole range of Debian installations, from
servers to laptops to embedded.

The biggest problem is that none of the arbitrary strings which get
printed on the packaging, product specs or even on the hardware itself
have any direct link to the actual chipsets used and it is the chipsets
which determine support. Most manufacturers have no interest in
providing this information as Debian compatibility is not seen as
interesting.

What version of Debian is this meant to be the basis of the data?
Don't assume stable because it's unstable where new support arrives
but it is testing which gets updated d-i builds. Who updates the data?
It's not really about the distro anyway, it's about the kernel in most
cases.

If you fancy working with the kernel and d-i teams to implement this
support, send patches to the relevant lists.

The point is not the stickers, the point is the reliable identification
of hardware despite manufacturers deliberately hiding the actual
details of which chips are actually used. This kind of stuff has to be
done by the manufacturer - that's how it works for Windows
compatibility. Doing this after manufacture is impractical because
manufacturers will always have to change chipsets without changing the
"branding" of the "product". That may mean providing an "updated"
driver for Windows, it does not always mean providing Linux kernel
support, let alone GNU/Linux distribution support.

This is an old problem. Big organisations are already involved in
lobbying for improved support - in the end, there shouldn't need to be
a database, the problem needs to be fixed at manufacture such that
Linux kernel support "just happens". Check out the Linux Foundation.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 07-21-2012, 09:16 PM
Philip Ashmore
 
Default Debian stickers

On 21/07/12 18:17, Neil Williams wrote:

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:48:07 +0100
Philip Ashmore<contact@philipashmore.com> wrote:


I know I would have liked to see a page on the installation process that
told me how well the PC I was installing Debian on was supported in
terms of drivers and features.

For unidentified or new hardware it could offer to add the PC to a
database where users of the same make/model could go to track updates in
driver selection etc, or even do it for them.

Thoughts?


Many similar ideas have been and gone over the years, nobody has
managed to collate the data and make it work. Are you volunteering?

The Linux Hardware Database is long gone. http://linuxhardware.net/ has
a noticeable lack of data, just a set of links to various wikis. Then
you'd have to deal with the whole range of Debian installations, from
servers to laptops to embedded.

The biggest problem is that none of the arbitrary strings which get
printed on the packaging, product specs or even on the hardware itself
have any direct link to the actual chipsets used and it is the chipsets
which determine support. Most manufacturers have no interest in
providing this information as Debian compatibility is not seen as
interesting.

What version of Debian is this meant to be the basis of the data?
Don't assume stable because it's unstable where new support arrives
but it is testing which gets updated d-i builds. Who updates the data?
It's not really about the distro anyway, it's about the kernel in most
cases.

If you fancy working with the kernel and d-i teams to implement this
support, send patches to the relevant lists.

The point is not the stickers, the point is the reliable identification
of hardware despite manufacturers deliberately hiding the actual
details of which chips are actually used. This kind of stuff has to be
done by the manufacturer - that's how it works for Windows
compatibility. Doing this after manufacture is impractical because
manufacturers will always have to change chipsets without changing the
"branding" of the "product". That may mean providing an "updated"
driver for Windows, it does not always mean providing Linux kernel
support, let alone GNU/Linux distribution support.

This is an old problem. Big organisations are already involved in
lobbying for improved support - in the end, there shouldn't need to be
a database, the problem needs to be fixed at manufacture such that
Linux kernel support "just happens". Check out the Linux Foundation.
Yes it is a can of worms that created itself through vendors playing
games with the specifications (like ACPI), and Microsoft letting them to
do so.


It raises some interesting questions:

1. If Microsoft are going to sign a Debian EFI key, what version of
Debian does it apply to?


2. If Microsoft are inclined to sign such a key, to they also commit to
providing things like chipset identification data, allowing Debian to
uniquely identify a PC and/or all its features?


3. Could Debian seriously claim to support a particular PC without the
means to identify it and/or its features?


4. Could this be a "certified for Debian" requirement?

5. Could Microsoft require Debian certification before signing Debians
key for a PC?


Regards,
Philip


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Old 07-21-2012, 11:53 PM
Timo Juhani Lindfors
 
Default Debian stickers

Neil Williams <codehelp@debian.org> writes:
> The biggest problem is that none of the arbitrary strings which get
> printed on the packaging, product specs or even on the hardware itself
> have any direct link to the actual chipsets used and it is the chipsets
> which determine support. Most manufacturers have no interest in
> providing this information as Debian compatibility is not seen as
> interesting.

smolt is a large automatically collected database of hardware that is in
actual use. I think they use dmi vendor and product name keys to group
the information. This is not perfect but at least it allows you to know
what possible chipsets have been sold under the name "X" so you won't be
surprised.


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Old 07-22-2012, 02:41 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default Debian stickers

On 07/21/2012 10:48 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:
> Hi there.
>
> Has anyone thought of making Debian stickers for
> 1. products that work with Debian
> 2. products that can have Debian installed on them
>
> This would need some kind of database detailing products and any
> issues associated with them.
>
> These could be grouped by company, country of origin, application etc.
>
> Maybe there could also be an offenders top ten list for companies that
> aren't bothered
> 1. providing the software they developed using Debian or GPL code
> without build instructions
> 2. closed source firmware
>
> I know I would have liked to see a page on the installation process
> that told me how well the PC I was installing Debian on was supported
> in terms of drivers and features.
>
> For unidentified or new hardware it could offer to add the PC to a
> database where users of the same make/model could go to track updates
> in driver selection etc, or even do it for them.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Philip Ashmore
>
>
Hi,

Such Debian stickers would make no sense without certification. A hardware
certification can only be done if we have the necessary software to do it.
We don't have it (yet), so let's discuss that instead, then when we have
it, we may talk about Debian stickers.

I had then intention, about a year ago, to write a small GUI, that would
run dimdecode, lspci, lsusb, attempt to play sound, see if there's mass
storage (HDD, etc.) and see if there's network connectivity. Once all
that would be done, all of these result would be sent to a central Debian
server, collecting all of these information. If no network is available,
there would be the possibility to save these as a file, then it would be
the responsibility of the user to send it to the central server. This
small app would then be added to Debian Live, so that OEM makers would be
able to try Debian on their hardware.

I had the idea and I think I would have the necessary skills to write
such GUI (both client and server side). But frankly, I had a look (once
more) at the QT and GTK tookits, and reading the documentation makes me
sick considering how lame all that is (disclaimer: I began my professional
carrier writing GUI cores, so I have enough knowledge to be able to say
that QT and GTK sux). So even with some efforts, I haven't been able to
convince myself to write some code that does a bit more than just opening
a window.

So, either someone stands and write the above in QT or GTK, or someone
points at a decent GUI toolkit (hint: this *must* include a GUI editor
working with a mouse, like I've been using since the late 80ies on Atari
computers...) and I make the effort.

Thomas


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Old 07-22-2012, 05:27 AM
lina
 
Default Debian stickers

I am (seriously) thinking, is it possible to turn the apple light logo
to debian/linux logo?

Thanks,


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Old 07-22-2012, 09:57 AM
Mike Dupont
 
Default Debian stickers

That would be great! It would help when shopping!

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Philip Ashmore <contact@philipashmore.com> wrote:


Has anyone thought of making Debian stickers for

1. products that work with Debian

--
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Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion*http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com
Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org


Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3
 
Old 07-22-2012, 01:31 PM
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
 
Default Debian stickers

On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, lina wrote:
> I am (seriously) thinking, is it possible to turn the apple light logo
> to debian/linux logo?

Yes. Cover it entirely with a design that will let a swirl of light get
past. The challenge is to make it look _good_ :-)

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh


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Old 07-22-2012, 01:47 PM
Paul Tagliamonte
 
Default Debian stickers

On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 10:31:28AM -0300, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2012, lina wrote:
> > I am (seriously) thinking, is it possible to turn the apple light logo
> > to debian/linux logo?
>
> Yes. Cover it entirely with a design that will let a swirl of light get
> past. The challenge is to make it look _good_ :-)

I've heard stories about someone who's taken their macbook pro apart, and
used a laser cuter to put a penguin around where the apple used to be,
then cut some plexi for the hole.

I think *that* is what needs to be done

>
> --
> "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
> them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
> where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
> Henrique Holschuh
>
>
> --
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
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>

--
.'`. Paul Tagliamonte <paultag@debian.org>
: :' : Proud Debian Developer
`. `'` 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
`- http://people.debian.org/~paultag
 
Old 07-22-2012, 09:41 PM
Philip Ashmore
 
Default Debian stickers

On 22/07/12 10:57, Mike Dupont wrote:

That would be great! It would help when shopping!

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Philip Ashmore
<contact@philipashmore.com <mailto:contact@philipashmore.com>> wrote:


Has anyone thought of making Debian stickers for
1. products that work with Debian




--
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion
http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com

Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org
Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3

I hadn't thought of the vendor sticking the badge on their product -
nice idea.


I guess if Microsoft is willing to sign Debians EFI key, then they must
at least in theory concede that some vendors might sell PCs without
Windows installed - bizarre.


No, I was (initially) thinking of regular users buying badges, like you
could for the Raspberry Pi - I hope the shop opens again soon!


http://www.raspberrypi.org/archives/320

Philip


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