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Russ Allbery 07-18-2012 05:54 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
Jon Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 03:31:37PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

>> Still, the check would be useful on laptops where wicd is installed and
>> enabled (the user could have a default ifupdown config and wicd
>> enabled).

> What happens if neither wicd nor network-manager are installed, and then
> both are installed at the same time?

Thankfully, we don't have parallel installation, so we're guaranteed that
one or the other is going to be configured first.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Russ Allbery 07-18-2012 05:56 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> writes:

> wicd is used only on machines that use wifi, this excludes most
> desktops.

wicd works fine with wired networks (although yes, I personally wouldn't
install it and would just use ifupdown for systems that have a simple
wired network).

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Michael Biebl 07-18-2012 08:46 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
On 18.07.2012 22:32, Wookey wrote:

> wicd is easy to disable as it has a ENABLE/DISABLE option in
> /etc/defaults. N-M doesn't so you either have to remove it properly or
> resort to nobbling the init script.

Nope, you don't have to "nobble" the init script.
Use "update-rc.d network-manager disable".
That's the proper interface to disable sysv services from starting.
Those /etc/defaults ENABLE switches are a hack

Why are people not a aware of that update-rc.d interface? Is this a
general documentation problem?

Michael
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Matt Zagrabelny 07-18-2012 08:54 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> wrote:
> On 18.07.2012 22:32, Wookey wrote:
>
>> wicd is easy to disable as it has a ENABLE/DISABLE option in
>> /etc/defaults. N-M doesn't so you either have to remove it properly or
>> resort to nobbling the init script.
>
> Nope, you don't have to "nobble" the init script.
> Use "update-rc.d network-manager disable".
> That's the proper interface to disable sysv services from starting.
> Those /etc/defaults ENABLE switches are a hack
>
> Why are people not a aware of that update-rc.d interface? Is this a
> general documentation problem?

I've been under the impression that future upgrades to the package
would re-enable the symlinks whereas /etc/default is not touched by
upgrades.

-mz


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Michael Biebl 07-18-2012 09:24 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
On 18.07.2012 22:54, Matt Zagrabelny wrote:

>> Why are people not a aware of that update-rc.d interface? Is this a
>> general documentation problem?
>
> I've been under the impression that future upgrades to the package
> would re-enable the symlinks whereas /etc/default is not touched by
> upgrades.

No, this is not true.

You are probably thinking of "update-rc.d <service> remove", which
simply removes the start symlinks, wheres disable renames them from S??
to K??. This change is preserved during upgrades and invoke-rc.d
correctly handles such services and does't try to start them when
disabled this way.



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Noel David Torres Taño 07-18-2012 10:04 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
On Miércoles, 18 de julio de 2012 21:46:05 Michael Biebl wrote:
> On 18.07.2012 22:32, Wookey wrote:
> > wicd is easy to disable as it has a ENABLE/DISABLE option in
> > /etc/defaults. N-M doesn't so you either have to remove it properly or
> > resort to nobbling the init script.
>
> Nope, you don't have to "nobble" the init script.
> Use "update-rc.d network-manager disable".
> That's the proper interface to disable sysv services from starting.
> Those /etc/defaults ENABLE switches are a hack
>
> Why are people not a aware of that update-rc.d interface? Is this a
> general documentation problem?
>
> Michael

Some people IS aware of that, but is also aware that if N-M disables a dhcp
interface in /etc/network/interfaces on install, that interface is not
reenabled on 'update-rc.d network-manager disable'. This means no networking
at all.

Also, some other people may be not aware of that. They just think that Debian
should provide a set of packages on which desktop environments do not mess
with static network configuration (YES, a dhcp stanza is static configuration,
it is there because the admin put it there).

Regards

Noel Torres
er Envite

Russ Allbery 07-18-2012 10:14 PM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> writes:

> Why are people not a aware of that update-rc.d interface? Is this a
> general documentation problem?

| windlord:~> update-rc.d
| update-rc.d: using dependency based boot sequencing
| update-rc.d: error: not enough arguments
| usage: update-rc.d [-n] [-f] <basename> remove
| update-rc.d [-n] <basename> defaults [NN | SS KK]
| update-rc.d [-n] <basename> start|stop NN runlvl [runlvl] [...] .
| update-rc.d [-n] <basename> disable|enable [S|2|3|4|5]
| -n: not really
| -f: force
|
| The disable|enable API is not stable and might change in the future.

The last line may be scaring people away unnecessarily.

It would also be useful if this paragraph in the update-rc.d man page:

A common system administration error is to delete the links with
the thought that this will "disable" the service, i.e., that this
will prevent the service from being started. However, if all links
have been deleted then the next time the package is upgraded, the
package's postinst script will run update-rc.d again and this will
reinstall links at their factory default locations. The correct
way to disable services is to configure the service as stopped in
all runlevels in which it is started by default. In the System V
init system this means renaming the service's symbolic links from S
to K.

actually mentioned disable, although I know it is mentioned later in the
man page.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Marvin Renich 07-19-2012 11:19 AM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
* Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> [120718 17:31]:
> On 18.07.2012 22:54, Matt Zagrabelny wrote:
>
> >> Why are people not a aware of that update-rc.d interface? Is this a
> >> general documentation problem?
> >
> > I've been under the impression that future upgrades to the package
> > would re-enable the symlinks whereas /etc/default is not touched by
> > upgrades.
>
> No, this is not true.
>
> You are probably thinking of "update-rc.d <service> remove", which
> simply removes the start symlinks, wheres disable renames them from S??
> to K??. This change is preserved during upgrades and invoke-rc.d
> correctly handles such services and does't try to start them when
> disabled this way.

While "update-rc.d <service> disable" correctly disables a service, what
most sysadmins want (or so I believe) when they disable a service in
this manner is to put the service in "manual" mode, which this does not
do, at least not completely. In "manual" mode, changes to the runlevel,
other than halt and reboot, do not stop or start that service. The
above command only acts as manual mode as long as the system never
changes runlevel.

To correctly put the service in manual mode you must manually remove the
symlinks from runlevels S 2 3 4 5, leaving the K symlinks for runlevels
0 and 6. update-rc.d will not do this, as its remove command will only
remove _all_ symlinks, and is really only intended for postrm scripts on
package purge.

...Marvin


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Michael Biebl 07-19-2012 11:53 AM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
On 19.07.2012 13:19, Marvin Renich wrote:
> * Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> [120718 17:31]:

>> You are probably thinking of "update-rc.d <service> remove", which
>> simply removes the start symlinks, wheres disable renames them from S??
>> to K??. This change is preserved during upgrades and invoke-rc.d
>> correctly handles such services and does't try to start them when
>> disabled this way.
>
> While "update-rc.d <service> disable" correctly disables a service, what
> most sysadmins want (or so I believe) when they disable a service in
> this manner is to put the service in "manual" mode, which this does not
> do, at least not completely. In "manual" mode, changes to the runlevel,
> other than halt and reboot, do not stop or start that service. The
> above command only acts as manual mode as long as the system never
> changes runlevel.


A service which has been disabled via "update-rc.d <service> disable" is
not started or stopped when you change runlevels.


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jors 07-29-2012 09:52 AM

Have NetworkManager disabled by default when...
 
On 18/07/12 22:32, Wookey wrote:

+++ Andrei POPESCU [2012-07-18 20:56 +0300]:

On Mi, 18 iul 12, 15:01:43, Adam Borowski wrote:


A different idea would be to have NM configured by default to do what it can
do well (wifi) and stay away from all other interfaces, but because it has
thorough assumptions that it controls all of networking in the system, this
is not a change that could realistically be done during freeze.


One of the reasons I'm using network-manager instead of wicd or even
plain ifupdown is the possibility to switch (more or less) seamlessly
between wired and wifi.


wicd does this just fine too. Tell it to autoconnect to wired and
selected wifi networks and it 'just works' (TM) for me. (wired at
work, wireless at home, in the normal case). I find both daemons give a
smooth experience for this usage (but wicd has the advantage of useful
curses and cli interfaces).


+1

(...)


wicd is easy to disable as it has a ENABLE/DISABLE option in
/etc/defaults. N-M doesn't so you either have to remove it properly or
resort to nobbling the init script.


When using rcconf, this becomes even easyer that editing text files.


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