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Old 07-18-2012, 01:01 PM
Adam Borowski
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 02:18:12PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2012-07-14 22:59:35 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> > Due to those drawbacks, I've wondered why people don't just disable
> > NetworkManager on their system instead of bothering with workarounds
> > like the above or dpkg -P --force-depends and similar.
>
> Sorry for being late in the discussion. I also think that having
> NetworkManager disabled for those who do not want to use it is
> a good solution. But I think that if other network configuration
> packages (ifupdown, wicd) are already used when network-manager
> is being installed, NetworkManager should be disabled by default,
> or the choice should be given to the user after telling him what
> is currently used.

ifupdown is always used, at least in some form (extreme embedded aside).
wicd is used only on machines that use wifi, this excludes most desktops.

So I'm afraid such a check would be mostly useless.


A different idea would be to have NM configured by default to do what it can
do well (wifi) and stay away from all other interfaces, but because it has
thorough assumptions that it controls all of networking in the system, this
is not a change that could realistically be done during freeze.


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Old 07-18-2012, 01:31 PM
Vincent Lefevre
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On 2012-07-18 15:01:43 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 02:18:12PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> > Sorry for being late in the discussion. I also think that having
> > NetworkManager disabled for those who do not want to use it is
> > a good solution. But I think that if other network configuration
> > packages (ifupdown, wicd) are already used when network-manager
> > is being installed, NetworkManager should be disabled by default,
> > or the choice should be given to the user after telling him what
> > is currently used.
>
> ifupdown is always used, at least in some form (extreme embedded aside).

Well, /etc/network/interfaces could be checked to see if the
admin could have modified the default config (not sure whether
this is possible reliably or this can be a heuristic).

> wicd is used only on machines that use wifi, this excludes most desktops.

Still, the check would be useful on laptops where wicd is installed
and enabled (the user could have a default ifupdown config and wicd
enabled).

> So I'm afraid such a check would be mostly useless.
>
>
> A different idea would be to have NM configured by default to do what it can
> do well (wifi) and stay away from all other interfaces, but because it has
> thorough assumptions that it controls all of networking in the system, this
> is not a change that could realistically be done during freeze.

Agreed (but note that NM shouldn't do wifi if wicd is enabled).

--
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100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <http://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Old 07-18-2012, 01:44 PM
Philipp Kern
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 03:01:43PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> wicd is used only on machines that use wifi, this excludes most desktops.

wicd can also be used to "manage" different Ethernet configurations.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern
 
Old 07-18-2012, 02:35 PM
Jon Dowland
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 03:31:37PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> Still, the check would be useful on laptops where wicd is installed
> and enabled (the user could have a default ifupdown config and wicd
> enabled).

What happens if neither wicd nor network-manager are installed, and then both
are installed at the same time?


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Old 07-18-2012, 05:56 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On Mi, 18 iul 12, 15:01:43, Adam Borowski wrote:
>
> A different idea would be to have NM configured by default to do what it can
> do well (wifi) and stay away from all other interfaces, but because it has
> thorough assumptions that it controls all of networking in the system, this
> is not a change that could realistically be done during freeze.

One of the reasons I'm using network-manager instead of wicd or even
plain ifupdown is the possibility to switch (more or less) seamlessly
between wired and wifi.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:32 PM
Wookey
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

+++ Andrei POPESCU [2012-07-18 20:56 +0300]:
> On Mi, 18 iul 12, 15:01:43, Adam Borowski wrote:
> >
> > A different idea would be to have NM configured by default to do what it can
> > do well (wifi) and stay away from all other interfaces, but because it has
> > thorough assumptions that it controls all of networking in the system, this
> > is not a change that could realistically be done during freeze.
>
> One of the reasons I'm using network-manager instead of wicd or even
> plain ifupdown is the possibility to switch (more or less) seamlessly
> between wired and wifi.

wicd does this just fine too. Tell it to autoconnect to wired and
selected wifi networks and it 'just works' (TM) for me. (wired at
work, wireless at home, in the normal case). I find both daemons give a
smooth experience for this usage (but wicd has the advantage of useful
curses and cli interfaces).

To answer another query on what happens if you have both installed: it
doesn't work well unless you disable one daemon or the other. If you
use the N-M control it can work OK, and wired may well work, but if
you use the wicd control N-M downs the wicd UPed wireless interfaces
every few seconds, the practical effect of which is no networking.

I don't think we should expect this to work, but I do remember it
taking me some time at a conference once to work out why on earth my
wireless networking wasn't working at all, depsite everything seeming
OK.

wicd is easy to disable as it has a ENABLE/DISABLE option in
/etc/defaults. N-M doesn't so you either have to remove it properly or
resort to nobbling the init script.

Wookey
--
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:48 PM
Vincent Lefevre
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On 2012-07-18 21:32:31 +0100, Wookey wrote:
> +++ Andrei POPESCU [2012-07-18 20:56 +0300]:
> > One of the reasons I'm using network-manager instead of wicd or even
> > plain ifupdown is the possibility to switch (more or less) seamlessly
> > between wired and wifi.
>
> wicd does this just fine too. Tell it to autoconnect to wired and
> selected wifi networks and it 'just works' (TM) for me. (wired at
> work, wireless at home, in the normal case). I find both daemons give a
> smooth experience for this usage (but wicd has the advantage of useful
> curses and cli interfaces).

One may want to use ifupdown for wired because it is more powerful
than wicd, thanks to the "mapping" stanza. In such a case, one needs
to disable wired completely in wicd, and then, I don't think it can
autoconnect to wifi only when there's no wired connection.

--
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100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <http://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)


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Old 07-19-2012, 05:54 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Have NetworkManager disabled by default when... (was: Recommends for metapackages)

On Mi, 18 iul 12, 21:32:31, Wookey wrote:
> >
> > One of the reasons I'm using network-manager instead of wicd or even
> > plain ifupdown is the possibility to switch (more or less) seamlessly
> > between wired and wifi.
>
> wicd does this just fine too.

In the past I've had problems with wicd in this regard. Since in the
meantime I have a 3G stick that works fine with NM I had no real
incentive to try again.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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