On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:31:43PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> Please try using complete sentences. While you're at it,
> constructive messages would be more productive than name-calling.

If you think that your messages are constructive, well, you're wrong. You're
repeating the same arguments over and over again, despite not being a Debian
Developer (yes, this time with two captial letters) and being told to stop.

(And I'm not sure about the majority communication pattern you tried to point
Steve at. I'm that >< close to put you into my killfile too.)

Everybody's entiled to his opinion but at some point, as Scott said, one has to
stop digging.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern

On 07/22/2012 01:24 AM, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>>
>> In my opinion, _every_ technical committee decision should be posted
>> to debian-devel-announce. Any time that the TC needs to make a decision,
>> it's already an unusual circumstance, and usually something's gone wrong.
>> It's _good_ to inform the whole project about it. It is educational and
>> keeps the voting population informed.
>
> Definitely, +1.

+2


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Le mardi, 24 juillet 2012 09.03:30, Philipp Kern a écrit :
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:31:43PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > Please try using complete sentences. While you're at it,
> > constructive messages would be more productive than name-calling.
>
> If you think that your messages are constructive, well, you're wrong.
> You're repeating the same arguments over and over again, despite not being
> a Debian Developer (yes, this time with two captial letters) and being
> told to stop.

FWIW, although I agree with the uselessness of repeating arguments over and
over, we should still be very careful about the use of the "You are no Debian
Developer so you can't speak" argument: we have seen both useless and noisy
contributions from DDs and useful and constructive contributions from non-DDs.

The DD status doesn't grant any right to behave as a troll; I tend to think it
rather imposes the contrary.

Cheers,

OdyX

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:36:51AM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> Le mardi, 24 juillet 2012 09.03:30, Philipp Kern a écrit :
> > On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:31:43PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > > Please try using complete sentences. While you're at it,
> > > constructive messages would be more productive than name-calling.
> > If you think that your messages are constructive, well, you're wrong.
> > You're repeating the same arguments over and over again, despite not being
> > a Debian Developer (yes, this time with two captial letters) and being
> > told to stop.
> FWIW, although I agree with the uselessness of repeating arguments over and
> over, we should still be very careful about the use of the "You are no Debian
> Developer so you can't speak" argument: we have seen both useless and noisy
> contributions from DDs and useful and constructive contributions from non-DDs.

Sure. I was refering to Steve's point about d-d-a being a list primarily
targetted at DDs and a must-subscribe for DDs. I just don't feel that some non-DD
can stand up and continue to demand changes that vocally if he's only a
circumstantial part of the audience. Especially given the fact that there was
no support for this cause from the target audience of the list.

And then he claimed to be a Debian developer[1] which is untrue given the
intended meaning DD.

Everybody can speak here as long as he contributes something useful[2].

> The DD status doesn't grant any right to behave as a troll; I tend to think it
> rather imposes the contrary.

Sure. I sort of realized that after sending my message that I should've said
that. Full ACK.

Kind regards
Philipp Kern

[1] The funny bit being that even the list page says "Debian developer" for
the people whose messages are accepted.
[2] Or funny, but that may be -curiosa material.

Scott Kitterman wrote:

On Monday, July 23, 2012 11:00:37 PM Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> Which kind of idiotic distraction?

The one where you continue this pointless thread.


I don't think this thread is pointless; it is simply too noisy.


If it isn't clear to you
already let me try one more time: You've pretty thoroughly alienated the
people that'll decide how the tech ctte communicates it's decisions.


This certainly isn't "clear", and won't become so until things suggest
that it is at least correct.



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Hi Russ,

Russ Allbery wrote:

Filipus Klutiero<chealer@gmail.com> writes:

> The "second highest decision-making body" in question is also our lowest
> conflict resolution body. I for one am not interested in reading the
> outcome of each small claims case.

You have been heard. I've read all of your messages on this thread, and
several other tech-ctte members have also read your request and the logic
behind it. I also thought about your counter-arguments to some of my
reasons for wanting to post the decisions.

Several other people have also weighed in on their perception of the
usefulness of the communication.

I think there's enough information here to make a decision for right now.
> From the reactions of various people stated here, I think it's safe to say
that, for the time being, announcements of decisions to
debian-devel-announce will continue. That's not because we've not
listened to your argument or gotten your point; it's just that other
people disagree.


I never intended to tell anyone that announcements of CTTE decisions to
debian-devel-announce should stop. My message was only about this
resolution. In fact, I hope that some further decisions will fit on
d-d-a and be announced there.



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Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

]] Filipus Klutiero

> > You are not a Debian developer.
>
> I am.

You don't seem to be in LDAP, nor in the keyring, so no, you're not,
unless you're posting under some alias or similar.


I am posting under an alias, but in any case, Debian's LDAP and keyring
only contain a fraction of developers.



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Hi Philipp,

Philipp Kern wrote:

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 10:31:43PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> Please try using complete sentences. While you're at it,
> constructive messages would be more productive than name-calling.

If you think that your messages are constructive, well, you're wrong.
You're
repeating the same arguments over and over again, despite not being a
Debian
Developer (yes, this time with two captial letters) and being told to
stop.


If you think I'm repeating the same arguments over and over again, I
would appreciate that you point to repetitions - once - rather than
simply stating that you think I'm repeating myself without explanation.



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On 07/25/12 02:15, Filipus Klutiero wrote:

>> You don't seem to be in LDAP, nor in the keyring, so no, you're not,
>> unless you're posting under some alias or similar.
>
> I am posting under an alias, but in any case, Debian's LDAP and keyring only
> contain a fraction of developers.

This is true for developers in general but we are talking about Debian Developers,
which are all present in the keyring as well as in the LDAP.

>From http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper:
A Debian developer (DD) is a Debian Project Member who has uploading rights.


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Quoting Filipus Klutiero (chealer@gmail.com):

> >The purpose of debian-devel-announce is for communicating announcements *to
> >people involved with the development of Debian*.
> >
> >You are not a Debian developer.
>
> I am.

Philippe, if you want to prove you're a DD, then sign you mails,
please.

I personnally appreciate the contributions you make in other fields of
Debian (particularly helping in reviewing the DPN) but, in this thread,
I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.