On 12-07-11 at 07:54pm, Abou Al Montacir wrote:
> On Tue, 2012-07-10 at 20:01 +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > "essential parts of what the upstream GNOME project has to offer" - as
> > its package description also clearly reflects.
> And NM is not essential in my point of view

Your view is irrelevant here: GNOME project considers it essential.


> > When I want "smallest possible GNOME setup" i install gnome-session
> As said before, I'm not looking for a minimal gnome, but for a typical
> gnome installation.

No, you are looking for an *atypical* installation, want Debian to
provide a meta-package that fits your needs.

Sorry, but Debian only provides meta-packages for typical needs. And
only for *some* typical needs.

Debian can be very flexible - just install normal packages. But you
want something simpler.

Debian can be very simple - just install meta-packages. But you want
something more customized.

*sigh*


> I can argue that a network connection is not part of the core
> functionality as gnome could work perfectly without network
> connection.

You can, and you do, but gnome-core is not about "core functionality".

Read the package description for an explanation of what the package is
about!


- Jonas

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On 12-07-11 at 07:21pm, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:
> > I still (as previously mentioned) believe that you really should
> > focus on gnome-session instead, if you feel gnome-core is too
> > invasive when it insist on installing certain image viewer, web
> > browser, video player and "other tools" (which includes a certain
> > network manager).
> >
> Installing an image viewer, a web browser or a video player does not
> break functionality of unrelated software, just gives you more
> options.
>
> Installing N-M breaks unrelated software.

That is a bug in network-manager, not in gnome-core.

That bug is not fixed nor worked around by making it easier to avoid the
broken package.


- Jonas

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Gergely wrote:
>Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <hmh@debian.org> writes:
>
>> IMO, metapackages should "depend" on the absolutely required stuff (and many
>> times that will be the empty set), "recommend" the rest, and maybe even
>> "suggest" fringe packages. This achieves maximum usability for more
>> usecases, and malfunctions only in the unsupported case of "no install
>> recommends by default" -- you should skip recommends always in a
>> case-by-case basis.
>
>That also achives maximum annoyance, because if I want the full
>platform, I'll have to go recommends/suggest hunting. (No, I'm *not*
>going to turn on install-recommends.)

Right. So you're arguing that all the packages should be listed as
Depends: to make *your* life easier, when you're doing something
different from what's recommended. Thanks for showing how much weight
we should attach to your argument.

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On Mi, 11 iul 12, 15:22:32, Gergely Nagy wrote:
>
> Like I said earlier: script it. I posted a script that can remove any
> number of packages from another's depends line, and echo a control
> file. Updating that to create a local meta-package is a piece of
> cake. Hooking it into apt is also similarly easy, and bingo, you have a
> solution.
>
> Package it up, create a config file for it, and it's ready to be shipped
> to users. Everyone wins.

IMVHO the defaults should be chosen to be friendly to potentially not so
knowledgeable users. Using Recommends instead of Depends in metapackages
would be much more friendly to them, while a more knowledgeable user can
always just use --install-recommends/--with-recommends if they are
disabled.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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On Mi, 11 iul 12, 14:41:50, Gergely Nagy wrote:
> Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > Depending on how you do the package selection on your next installation
> > you might end up with rsyslog, but without logrotate[1].
>
> I don't see how that would break anything. logrotate is not necessary
> for log rotation, not with the syslog daemon of my choice at least. And
> as you said yourself, log rotation isn't mandatory either.

Given that I have turned off Recommends on that system because it's
space constrained (it's running from a 2GB USB stick) having logs not
rotated would have become a problem eventually.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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> > Installing N-M breaks unrelated software.

>

> That is a bug in network-manager, not in gnome-core.

>

> That bug is not fixed nor worked around by making it easier to avoid the

> broken package.

>

No. It is not a broken package. It does what it is designed to do. The bug is having it as a Depends when it is not a dependency. The solution is having it as a Recommends. This will work for most users (since most users install Recommends by default), while giving FREEDOM OF CHOICE for those who are expertised enough to decide if installing Recommends or not.

*

Everything else (like not installing the metapackage and cherrypicking packages, creating ad-hoc metapackage or scripting) are workarounds.

*

Removing it by hand with dpkg -P --force-depends is an uglier workaround, and the only one available to people without expertise programming/packaging/hunting cherries.

*

Regards

Noel Torres

er Envite

[...]

> > > "essential parts of what the upstream GNOME project has to offer" - as

> > > its package description also clearly reflects.

> >

> > And NM is not essential in my point of view

>

> Your view is irrelevant here: GNOME project considers it essential.

*

Gnome view is the one irrelevant. This is Debian GNU/Linux, not Gnome GNU/Linux. We need to care for our users (both proficient and novice [1]), not for Gnome developers desires. And if they had a flawed design we can patch, we should do as we do with any other flawed software.

*

[...]

> > As said before, I'm not looking for a minimal gnome, but for a typical

> > gnome installation.

>

> No, you are looking for an *atypical* installation, want Debian to

> provide a meta-package that fits your needs.

*

What is typical is a user who install Recommends by default, so that user will have the same packages if he installs a gnome-core with n-m as Recommends as if he install a gnome-core with n-m as Depends.

*

And since typical users will receive the same packages, we can care for not-so-typical users and do The Correct Thing: have n-m as a Recommend. The Policy reads about Recommends, very clearly, that it is to be used for packages to be found on all but rare installations. Let's obey the Policy.

*

[1] Proficent users may want to install gnome easyly, but not to have n-m as it will probably break their systems or just make their Pidgin not to work properly. This can be achieved by having n-m as a Recommends. Novice users want to install gnome easyly and to manage ther network easyly, and also to manage their packages easyly, and that means installing metapackages and having these pulling in Recommends by default. So both kinds of users will benefit by having n-m as a Recommend. Only angry users would be a) Gnome developers/fanboys, and b)...well, there is no b).

*

Regards

Noel Torres

er Envite

Noel David Torres Taño <envite@rolamasao.org> (11/07/2012):
> > Your view is irrelevant here: GNOME project considers it essential.
>
> Gnome view is the one irrelevant. This is Debian GNU/Linux, not Gnome
> GNU/Linux. We need to care for our users (both proficient and novice [1]),
> not for Gnome developers desires. And if they had a flawed design we can
> patch, we should do as we do with any other flawed software.

Blah blah blah. What matters is the maintainers' views (as long as
common sense applies). They chose to follow upstream's choices, which is
usually a sane thing to do (unless upstream is crazy).

Now if you don't like those choices, pick your own packages yourself,
build your own meta package, or whatever.

Plenty of RC bugs to submit patches for. Surely more interesting than
those meta packages, right?

Mraw,
KiBi.

On July 10, 2012 10:39:10 AM Sune Vuorela wrote:
> On 2012-07-10, Gergely Nagy <algernon@balabit.hu> wrote:
> > No. Only if installing recommends is turned on, which cannot be
> > guaranteed.
>
> There is many ways to break your system. turning off installation of
> recommends is one of them.

So, if Recommends should always be installed--effectively turning them into
Depends--why do Recommends exist...

Not installing a Recommended package shouldn't break your system,
functionality will be reduced but if it breaks then the package probably
should be Depended upon or split into depended and recommended upon parts.

- Bruce


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On 2012-07-11, Bruce Sass <bmsass@shaw.ca> wrote:
> On July 10, 2012 10:39:10 AM Sune Vuorela wrote:
>> On 2012-07-10, Gergely Nagy <algernon@balabit.hu> wrote:
>> > No. Only if installing recommends is turned on, which cannot be
>> > guaranteed.
>>
>> There is many ways to break your system. turning off installation of
>> recommends is one of them.
>
> So, if Recommends should always be installed--effectively turning them into
> Depends--why do Recommends exist...

for the 1-2% of people who has weird needs.

and it is okay to have weird needs. bug reports just needs to also come
with a patch.

/Sune


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