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Old 07-06-2012, 09:10 PM
Steve McIntyre
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Hey people,

Following up on this again...

Back in May I warned about CD sizes[1] for the Wheezy release,
pointing out that CD#1 isn't big enough any more to provide usable
Gnome or KDE installations. There was some discussion about what to do
about that (change compression to xz, switch to the lighter desktops
by default, require more than one CD, recommend DVDs instead), then
Joey pointed out that the existing setup in debian-cd wasn't working
correctly with existing tasks since we switched to task packages. I
fixed that a while ago and pointed to the results [2], but they're
still not encouraging. I've just checked on the builds from this
week's run on amd64 and updated the sorted package lists. What I'm
seeing now is:

Gnome
=====

The last package on amd64 CD#1 is gnome-packagekit-data. task-desktop
fits on CD#1, but task-gnome-desktop is ~110 packages into
CD#2. gnome-shell-common doesn't even make CD#1, which means the
desktop will be a little... sparse. The full sorted package list is at

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/gnome-cd.list.gz

KDE
===

The last package on amd64 CD#1 is libkontactinterface4. task-desktop
fits on CD#1, but task-kde-desktop is about 60 packages into (what
would be) CD#2. The full sorted package list is at

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/kde-cd.list.gz

LIGHT (lxde/xfce)
=====

The last package on amd64 CD#1 is libmng1. The core tasks fit fine
(task-desktop, task-lxde-desktop, task-xfce-desktop), well within the
the space of CD#1. Full sorted list at

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/light-cd.list.gz

I'm going to talk about this more at the debian-cd BoF on Monday
(17:00 local time, 23:00 UTC). In the mean time, please feel free to
ask questions...

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2012/05/msg00025.html
[2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-cd/2012/06/msg00010.html

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com
We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control.


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Old 07-06-2012, 09:27 PM
Timo Juhani Lindfors
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> writes:
> Back in May I warned about CD sizes[1] for the Wheezy release,
> pointing out that CD#1 isn't big enough any more to provide usable
> Gnome or KDE installations.

Indeed. CD1 was really problematic in squeeze too:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2011/08/msg00172.html


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Old 07-07-2012, 12:59 AM
Steve McIntyre
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

As suggested by Ansgar IRL, here's a summary of what compression types
are showing up on each CD (by looking at data.tar.$EXT for all the
.debs and .udebs):

>Gnome
>=====
>
>The last package on amd64 CD#1 is gnome-packagekit-data. task-desktop
>fits on CD#1, but task-gnome-desktop is ~110 packages into
>CD#2. gnome-shell-common doesn't even make CD#1, which means the
>desktop will be a little... sparse. The full sorted package list is at
>
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/gnome-cd.list.gz

bz2 16 deb
xz 8 deb, 157 udeb
gz 897 deb, 60 udeb

>KDE
>===
>
>The last package on amd64 CD#1 is libkontactinterface4. task-desktop
>fits on CD#1, but task-kde-desktop is about 60 packages into (what
>would be) CD#2. The full sorted package list is at
>
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/kde-cd.list.gz

bz2 17 deb
xz 6 deb, 157 udeb
gz 879 deb, 60 udeb

>LIGHT (lxde/xfce)
>=====
>
>The last package on amd64 CD#1 is libmng1. The core tasks fit fine
>(task-desktop, task-lxde-desktop, task-xfce-desktop), well within the
>the space of CD#1. Full sorted list at
>
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/light-cd.list.gz

bz2 23 deb
xz 28 deb, 157 udeb
gz 877 deb, 60 udeb

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com
"I suspect most samba developers are already technically insane... Of
course, since many of them are Australians, you can't tell." -- Linus Torvalds


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Old 07-07-2012, 03:00 AM
Ansgar Burchardt
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Hi,

Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> writes:
> Back in May I warned about CD sizes[1] for the Wheezy release,
> pointing out that CD#1 isn't big enough any more to provide usable
> Gnome or KDE installations. There was some discussion about what to do
> about that (change compression to xz, switch to the lighter desktops
> by default, require more than one CD, recommend DVDs instead), [...]

I tried recompressing all packages in wheezy with xz. The total size
for all amd64+all packages was reduced from 42GB to 33 GB (about 20%).
A per-package listing is available from [1]

[1] <http://people.debian.org/~ansgar/wheezy-20120706-with-xz.txt.gz>

Would this be enough to make GNOME and/or KDE installable from a single
CD image?

Ansgar


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Old 07-07-2012, 03:47 AM
Steve McIntyre
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 09:00:32PM -0600, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> writes:
>> Back in May I warned about CD sizes[1] for the Wheezy release,
>> pointing out that CD#1 isn't big enough any more to provide usable
>> Gnome or KDE installations. There was some discussion about what to do
>> about that (change compression to xz, switch to the lighter desktops
>> by default, require more than one CD, recommend DVDs instead), [...]
>
>I tried recompressing all packages in wheezy with xz. The total size
>for all amd64+all packages was reduced from 42GB to 33 GB (about 20%).
>A per-package listing is available from [1]
>
> [1] <http://people.debian.org/~ansgar/wheezy-20120706-with-xz.txt.gz>
>
>Would this be enough to make GNOME and/or KDE installable from a single
>CD image?

Using rough calculation:

* For GNOME, it takes about 185MB out of the space used to get up to
task-gnome-desktop. Instead of being ~90MB into CD#2, that's ~100MB
inside CD#1.

* For KDE, it takes about 170MB out of the space used to get up to
task-kde-desktop. Instead of being ~70MB into CD#2, that's ~100MB
inside CD#1.

So, yes - looks like xz will make a difference here for the wheezy
release, for amd64 at least. It's enough that we'd probably even have
space for the installation manual and release notes to fit o/.

i386 is still worse off (2 kernels instead of 1), but I don't have the
exact figures to hand.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com
Who needs computer imagery when you've got Brian Blessed?


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Old 07-07-2012, 01:01 PM
Ansgar Burchardt
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> writes:
> On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 09:00:32PM -0600, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
>>I tried recompressing all packages in wheezy with xz. The total size
>>for all amd64+all packages was reduced from 42GB to 33 GB (about 20%).
>>A per-package listing is available from [1]
>>
>> [1] <http://people.debian.org/~ansgar/wheezy-20120706-with-xz.txt.gz>
>>
>>Would this be enough to make GNOME and/or KDE installable from a single
>>CD image?
>
> Using rough calculation:
>
> * For GNOME, it takes about 185MB out of the space used to get up to
> task-gnome-desktop. Instead of being ~90MB into CD#2, that's ~100MB
> inside CD#1.
>
> * For KDE, it takes about 170MB out of the space used to get up to
> task-kde-desktop. Instead of being ~70MB into CD#2, that's ~100MB
> inside CD#1.
>
> So, yes - looks like xz will make a difference here for the wheezy
> release, for amd64 at least. It's enough that we'd probably even have
> space for the installation manual and release notes to fit o/.
>
> i386 is still worse off (2 kernels instead of 1), but I don't have the
> exact figures to hand.

We need a safety margin as the base system must continue to use gzip
compression. But my feelings say that 100 MB should be enough for that.

Another question is if the release team would consider unblocking
updated packages (with just the switch to xz for binaries). I think it
would be nice to be able to get a useful desktop system using just the
first CD, but I'm not sure if they would make an exception for this.

Ansgar


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Old 07-07-2012, 01:10 PM
Bastian Blank
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:10:04PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/gnome-cd.list.gz

Why does this contain debug packages?

Bastian

--
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-- Kirk, "The Corbomite Maneuver", stardate 1514.0


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Old 07-07-2012, 01:34 PM
Steve McIntyre
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 03:10:15PM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
>On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:10:04PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/tmp/new-tasks/gnome-cd.list.gz
>
>Why does this contain debug packages?

The list posted there is the full sorted list of *all* packages, as
applied to the full set of CDs. The last one on CD#1 is
gnome-packagekit-data, as I said, and I don't see any debug packages
above that in the list.

--
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"This dress doesn't reverse." -- Alden Spiess


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Old 07-07-2012, 02:14 PM
Bastian Blank
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 02:34:44PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> The list posted there is the full sorted list of *all* packages, as
> applied to the full set of CDs. The last one on CD#1 is
> gnome-packagekit-data, as I said, and I don't see any debug packages
> above that in the list.

Ups, I did the wrong check.

Anyway, some remarks:
- aptitude: can be downgraded from standard
- gcc-4.[56]-base
- python2.6: 2.7 is already there
- loop-aes-utils: loop-aes is not supported
- grub-legacy
- build-essential, linux-kbuild-3.2, kernel-package: development stuff
- module-assistant: deprecated for dkms
- localepurge
- pump

This is all before X.

Bastian

--
Insults are effective only where emotion is present.
-- Spock, "Who Mourns for Adonais?" stardate 3468.1


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Old 07-07-2012, 07:42 PM
Ben Hutchings
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 16:14 +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 02:34:44PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > The list posted there is the full sorted list of *all* packages, as
> > applied to the full set of CDs. The last one on CD#1 is
> > gnome-packagekit-data, as I said, and I don't see any debug packages
> > above that in the list.
>
> Ups, I did the wrong check.
>
> Anyway, some remarks:
> - aptitude: can be downgraded from standard
> - gcc-4.[56]-base
> - python2.6: 2.7 is already there
> - loop-aes-utils: loop-aes is not supported
> - grub-legacy
> - build-essential, linux-kbuild-3.2, kernel-package: development stuff
> - module-assistant: deprecated for dkms
> - localepurge
> - pump
>
> This is all before X.

I agree with all the above.

More stuff unlikely to be needed on a desktop:

- ftp, telnet: mostly redundant with wget and nc, unless you really like
cleartext authentication
- tcpd: server
- procmail: server
- module-init-tools: transitional package
- pcmciautils: PCMCIA is dead
- jfsutils, reiserfsprogs, ufsutils: obscure
- openssh-server: server, not desktop
- sharutils: obscure; we've had MIME for 20 years
- fakeroot, autopoint: more development
- deborphan, debfoster: obscure
- mtools: obscure; FAT volumes are auto-mounted
- twm: no-one should have to suffer this
- discover, mdetect: I think these are pretty much obsolete, but could
be wrong
- linux-sound-base, alsa-base, alsa-utils: rarely needed AFAIK

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
When in doubt, use brute force. - Ken Thompson
 

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