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Old 07-08-2012, 06:01 PM
Ansgar Burchardt
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Hi

Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> writes:
> Ansgar has been experimenting with .deb sizes to make the packages
> needed for a minimal desktop installation fit in the first CD. It looks
> like that's doable by switching to xz compression for the involved
> binaries. Would you grant freeze exceptions for packages that only
> changes that?

Based on Sledge's list of packages for the CD images, I prepared a list
of savings-per-binary:

For GNOME, we can save up to 137 MB changing compression up to
task-gnome-desktop (108 MB by changing only 100 out of 969 binaries).
Or up to 252 MB up to task-laptop (183 MB changing only 100 binaries).

For KDE, it is 136 MB up to task-kde-desktop (106 MB for 100 binaries)
or 197 MB up to task-amharic (150 MB changing only 100 binaries).

Please note that these numbers include packages from the base system.
The real gains should be a bit less.

I'm not sure how much savings we need to fit things on CD1, maybe Sledge
can fill this? Also I'm a bit unsure why Sledge had a bit higher
numbers on -devel earlier[1].

Please take a look at the files in [1] for details. They list binary
packages, saving for switching this package (in kB) and the sum of
savings switching all packages so far (in kB).

Ansgar

[1] <http://people.debian.org/~ansgar/wheezy-cd-with-xz/>


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Old 07-08-2012, 07:16 PM
Cyril Brulebois
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> (08/07/2012):
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 01:17:32AM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
> > Even grub-legacy?
>
> Yes; d-i in expert mode still has the ability to explicitly choose for
> grub legacy, if you really want to.

It looks to me like a current debian-installer build installs grub2,
with no option for grub-legacy, even in expert mode.

Apparently one can skip grub and install lilo instead, or skip
installing any bootloader. Maybe you meant picking up that latter
option, then manually installing grub-legacy?

Mraw,
KiBi.
 
Old 07-08-2012, 08:12 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> It looks to me like a current debian-installer build installs grub2,
> with no option for grub-legacy, even in expert mode.

grub-legacy is still used for multipath and sataraid.
Something was going to be done to make grub2 support those, but
I don't know the status.

--
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:49 PM
Jonathan McDowell
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 02:12:44PM -0600, Joey Hess wrote:
> Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> > It looks to me like a current debian-installer build installs grub2,
> > with no option for grub-legacy, even in expert mode.
>
> grub-legacy is still used for multipath and sataraid.
> Something was going to be done to make grub2 support those, but
> I don't know the status.

wheezy's grub2 is much better at multipath than squeeze's - I've
switched several production machines to the wheezy variant because It
Just Worked for me, while the squeeze version would fail to figure out
devices whenever update-grub was run.

J.

--
101 things you can't have too much of : 27 - Ice cream.
 
Old 07-09-2012, 02:10 PM
Ivan Shmakov
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

>>>>> Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> writes:

[...]

> - twm: no-one should have to suffer this

And, exactly, why not? Before I've switched to Openbox, it was
one of the two WM's I've used, along with FVWM. And they say
[1] that it still can be handy at times.

The “obscure” label may fit, though.

[...]

[1] news:1187451736@ddt.demos.su
(in Russian; and is garbled beyond recognition on Google Groups.)

--
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:22 PM
Charles Plessy
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Le Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 02:12:44PM -0600, Joey Hess a crit :
>
> grub-legacy is still used for multipath and sataraid.
> Something was going to be done to make grub2 support those, but
> I don't know the status.

Hi,

Grub-legacy is also useful for booting virtual machine images with pv-grub
(such as on the Amazon cloud). But in that use case it is probably better to
use netinst than CD1.

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Illkirch-Graffenstaden, France


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Old 07-09-2012, 09:02 PM
Neil McGovern
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:22:58PM -0600, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Ansgar has been experimenting with .deb sizes to make the packages
> needed for a minimal desktop installation fit in the first CD. It looks
> like that's doable by switching to xz compression for the involved
> binaries. Would you grant freeze exceptions for packages that only
> changes that?
>

Hi,

Although this doesn't actually fit with the criteria we've set up, I
would consider having things actually fit on CDs. Thus lets just say
that this is a release goal and get on with it.

So yes.

Neil
--
 
Old 07-09-2012, 11:49 PM
Hideki Yamane
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Hi,

On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:58:16 +0200
Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> wrote:
> • xz -6 (the default) is a lot slower when compressing, fast when
> decompressing, needs only 10MB memory, 58% size
> • xz -9 has very slow compression, takes gobs of memory, 56% size
> (Obviously, the "size" numbers are dragged down by uncompressible files
> when you look at the whole archive.)

I tested as well, and sometimes decompression with xz is so sloooow,
it takes 6-8 times than default gz.


> Also, switching to XZ debs is not just a CD issue, doing so would
> drastically reduce the resource usage of mirrors.

Truely yes, it is benefit for mirrors.
If we use xz for top 50 packages, we can cut 30% of traffic.


--
Hideki Yamane <henrich@debian.or.jp>
https://penta.debconf.org/penta/schedule/dc12/event/930.en.html


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Old 07-21-2012, 03:42 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Hideki Yamane wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:58:16 +0200
> Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> wrote:
> > • xz -6 (the default) is a lot slower when compressing, fast when
> > decompressing, needs only 10MB memory, 58% size
> > • xz -9 has very slow compression, takes gobs of memory, 56% size
> > (Obviously, the "size" numbers are dragged down by uncompressible files
> > when you look at the whole archive.)
>
> I tested as well, and sometimes decompression with xz is so sloooow,
> it takes 6-8 times than default gz.

I was just watching your DebConf presentation "Lets shrink Debian
package archive" and I think there you said decompression with xz was
between 2x and 6x slower. Is that the current number?

I'm concerned with the thought that installation of Debian (as well
as debootstrap) could take twice or more as long if xz were used for
say, every package on a Gnome desktop CD. In d-i we try to make
installation faster; slow installs make people less happy. It would
be useful to have some real-world installation time benchmarks with
and without xz.

BTW, when we switched to building udebx with xz, Philipp Kern benchmarked
it using little or no additional CPU to decompress xz produced with
-Zxz -z1 -Sextreme http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2011/10/msg00247.html

--
see shy jo
 
Old 07-21-2012, 05:59 PM
Mike Hommey
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 21, 2012 at 11:42:03AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Hideki Yamane wrote:
> > On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 17:58:16 +0200
> > Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> wrote:
> > > • xz -6 (the default) is a lot slower when compressing, fast when
> > > decompressing, needs only 10MB memory, 58% size
> > > • xz -9 has very slow compression, takes gobs of memory, 56% size
> > > (Obviously, the "size" numbers are dragged down by uncompressible files
> > > when you look at the whole archive.)
> >
> > I tested as well, and sometimes decompression with xz is so sloooow,
> > it takes 6-8 times than default gz.
>
> I was just watching your DebConf presentation "Lets shrink Debian
> package archive" and I think there you said decompression with xz was
> between 2x and 6x slower. Is that the current number?
>
> I'm concerned with the thought that installation of Debian (as well
> as debootstrap) could take twice or more as long if xz were used for
> say, every package on a Gnome desktop CD. In d-i we try to make
> installation faster; slow installs make people less happy. It would
> be useful to have some real-world installation time benchmarks with
> and without xz.

Note that slower decompression doesn't necessarily mean longer
installation time. I/O is still more time consuming than CPU.

Mike


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