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Old 07-07-2012, 10:03 PM
Cyril Brulebois
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> (07/07/2012):
> Another question is if the release team would consider unblocking
> updated packages (with just the switch to xz for binaries). I think
> it would be nice to be able to get a useful desktop system using just
> the first CD, but I'm not sure if they would make an exception for
> this.

You may want to actually ask the release team at some point, if you want
to know. Just saying…

Mraw,
KiBi.
 
Old 07-07-2012, 10:22 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 12:03:44AM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> (07/07/2012):
> > Another question is if the release team would consider unblocking
> > updated packages (with just the switch to xz for binaries). I think
> > it would be nice to be able to get a useful desktop system using just
> > the first CD, but I'm not sure if they would make an exception for
> > this.
>
> You may want to actually ask the release team at some point, if you want
> to know. Just saying…

Thanks for the brilliant idea! :-)

Oh all mighty release team,
Ansgar has been experimenting with .deb sizes to make the packages
needed for a minimal desktop installation fit in the first CD. It looks
like that's doable by switching to xz compression for the involved
binaries. Would you grant freeze exceptions for packages that only
changes that?

See attached email and the corresponding thread on -devel for more info.

Thanks!
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences ...... http://upsilon.cc/zack ...... . . o
Debian Project Leader ....... @zack on identi.ca ....... o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
 
Old 07-07-2012, 10:36 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

> - ftp, telnet: mostly redundant with wget and nc, unless you really like
> cleartext authentication
> - procmail: server

These are priority standard.

> - pcmciautils: PCMCIA is dead
> - jfsutils, reiserfsprogs, ufsutils: obscure
> - discover
> - openssh-server: server, not desktop
> - grub-legacy

These are all installed by d-i in various situations.

> - loop-aes-utils: loop-aes is not supported

partman-crypto still installs this.

> - sharutils: obscure; we've had MIME for 20 years
> - fakeroot, autopoint: more development
> - mtools: obscure; FAT volumes are auto-mounted
> - tcpd: server
> - module-init-tools: transitional package
> - linux-sound-base,
> - gcc-4.[56]-base
> - python2.6: 2.7 is already there

AFAICS, debian-cd does not explicitly include these, they're being
pulled in by some other packages.

> alsa-base, alsa-utils: rarely needed AFAIK

These are currently included in the desktop task.

alsa-utils stores mixer settings, so users are only puzzled by
everything defaulted to being muted once, not every boot..

> - deborphan, debfoster: obscure
> - pump
> - twm: no-one should have to suffer this
> mdetect
> - localepurge

I've removed these.

--
see shy jo
 
Old 07-07-2012, 11:17 PM
Bastian Blank
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:36:34PM -0600, Joey Hess wrote:
> > - ftp, telnet: mostly redundant with wget and nc, unless you really like
> > cleartext authentication
> > - procmail: server
> These are priority standard.

This is fixeable.

> > - pcmciautils: PCMCIA is dead
> > - jfsutils, reiserfsprogs, ufsutils: obscure
> > - discover
> > - openssh-server: server, not desktop
> > - grub-legacy
> These are all installed by d-i in various situations.

Even grub-legacy?

> > - loop-aes-utils: loop-aes is not supported
> partman-crypto still installs this.

This can be fixed easily.

> > - sharutils: obscure; we've had MIME for 20 years
> > - fakeroot, autopoint: more development
> > - mtools: obscure; FAT volumes are auto-mounted
> > - tcpd: server
> > - module-init-tools: transitional package
> > - linux-sound-base,
> > - gcc-4.[56]-base
> > - python2.6: 2.7 is already there
> AFAICS, debian-cd does not explicitly include these, they're being
> pulled in by some other packages.

Priority? Will write bugs.

Bastian

--
History tends to exaggerate.
-- Col. Green, "The Savage Curtain", stardate 5906.4


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Old 07-08-2012, 12:29 AM
Ben Hutchings
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 16:36 -0600, Joey Hess wrote:
> > - ftp, telnet: mostly redundant with wget and nc, unless you really like
> > cleartext authentication
> > - procmail: server
>
> These are priority standard.

Which is not the same as being important to include in a desktop
installation.

> > - pcmciautils: PCMCIA is dead
> > - jfsutils, reiserfsprogs, ufsutils: obscure
> > - discover
> > - openssh-server: server, not desktop
> > - grub-legacy
>
> These are all installed by d-i in various situations.

Many things are installed by d-i in various situations, and yet are not
on CD#1.

> > - loop-aes-utils: loop-aes is not supported
>
> partman-crypto still installs this.

Seems like a bug...? The package is orphaned and dm-crypt has support
for a compatible encryption mode.

> > - sharutils: obscure; we've had MIME for 20 years
> > - fakeroot, autopoint: more development
> > - mtools: obscure; FAT volumes are auto-mounted
> > - tcpd: server
> > - module-init-tools: transitional package
> > - linux-sound-base,
> > - gcc-4.[56]-base
> > - python2.6: 2.7 is already there
>
> AFAICS, debian-cd does not explicitly include these, they're being
> pulled in by some other packages.

OK, but then we should work out how that is and fix it.

> > alsa-base, alsa-utils: rarely needed AFAIK
>
> These are currently included in the desktop task.
>
> alsa-utils stores mixer settings, so users are only puzzled by
> everything defaulted to being muted once, not every boot..
[...]

I know that. But CD#1 is for the GNOME desktop, where PulseAudio stores
mixer settings.

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
Life would be so much easier if we could look at the source code.
 
Old 07-08-2012, 01:03 AM
Christian PERRIER
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Quoting Ben Hutchings (ben@decadent.org.uk):

> > partman-crypto still installs this.
>
> Seems like a bug...? The package is orphaned and dm-crypt has support
> for a compatible encryption mode.


Given the level of attention which partman-crypto got during the
squeeze->wheezy release, I'd bet this is indeed a bug, yes.
 
Old 07-08-2012, 03:58 PM
Adam Borowski
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:22:58PM -0600, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 12:03:44AM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> > Ansgar Burchardt <ansgar@debian.org> (07/07/2012):
> > > Another question is if the release team would consider unblocking
> > > updated packages (with just the switch to xz for binaries). I think
> > > it would be nice to be able to get a useful desktop system using just
> > > the first CD, but I'm not sure if they would make an exception for
> > > this.
> >
> > You may want to actually ask the release team at some point, if you want
> > to know. Just saying…
>
> Thanks for the brilliant idea! :-)
>
> Oh all mighty release team,
> Ansgar has been experimenting with .deb sizes to make the packages
> needed for a minimal desktop installation fit in the first CD. It looks
> like that's doable by switching to xz compression for the involved
> binaries. Would you grant freeze exceptions for packages that only
> changes that?

Note that has been raised in LOOOONG threads twice in less than a year.
So let's rehash the findings:

* XZ is almost always better:
• xz -0 is twice as fast as gzip, with 78% the size (tested on a random
92MB unstripped amd64 executable)
• xz -3 is at par with gzip -9's compression speed
• xz -6 (the default) is a lot slower when compressing, fast when
decompressing, needs only 10MB memory, 58% size
• xz -9 has very slow compression, takes gobs of memory, 56% size
(Obviously, the "size" numbers are dragged down by uncompressible files
when you look at the whole archive.)
• It has somewhat slow start: small files may compress better with gzip,
but never to a degree that would justify the complexity of switching
compression algorithms.

* After recompressing the whole archive, it turns out compressing only
biggest packages is not a good idea: the bulk of space is taken by
medium-sized packages, which recompress almost as good. Thus, for best
effects, xz should be dpkg-deb's default.

* Any native ways to install support xz:
• dpkg does (squeeze but not lenny)
• d-i does (via busybox)
* Debootstrap relies on unxz being available on the running system. Which
might be not there for ancient ones.

Ie, the only show-stopper is debootstrap on foreign systems.

Here, there are two approaches:

* making sure all .debs debootstrap has to unpack use gzip.
• explicitely forcing gzip in the packages affected would be error-prone
• dpkg-deb doesn't know which packages are base, as transitive
dependencies make prority itself not enough
On the other hand, checking this by hand and rejecting the package only
during/after upload could work as a short-term solution.

* letting debootstrap handle xz files.
• using arch-dependent executables is probably a bad idea
• unxz would be hard to re-implement in Perl or something else typically
available on bare systems, Mirabilos tells me some BSDs don't even have
Perl. No other reasonable language is likely to be there.
• having a bunch of unxz executables for every architecture is doable, but
would be damn hard to build in an automated way, especially if we want
debootstrap to handle unofficial ports. Currently, gcc needs libc6-dev
for the target system to cross-compile.
• alternatively, one could use stand-alone binaries with some heavy
hackery. Unxz-embedded can be whipped into working with only three
syscalls: read(), write() and _exit(), perhaps also some way to fetch
memory. This could be built without any headers, for any architecture
gcc supports. For an extra bonus, such ultra-static executables would
reduce the number of variants: one file is needed for i386, x32 and
amd64; armel and armhf, etc. Sadly, the ELF header restricts
architectures, or with a proper trampoline you could even have one
executable work on twenty or more archs
I did not hear Joey Hess or others chime in: would you accept such an
universal binary into debootstrap? It already ships a tarball (one with
required /dev nodes).

* Repacking existing .debs is not a good idea for the main archive (even if
it works "at home"). I doubt no-recompilation binNMUs would be safe, too.

Also, switching to XZ debs is not just a CD issue, doing so would
drastically reduce the resource usage of mirrors.


--
Copyright and patents were never about promoting culture and innovations;
from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income
and to let businesses get rid of competition. For some history, please read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623
 
Old 07-08-2012, 04:07 PM
Hideki Yamane
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

Hi,

On Sat, 7 Jul 2012 04:47:35 +0100
Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> wrote:
> So, yes - looks like xz will make a difference here for the wheezy
> release, for amd64 at least. It's enough that we'd probably even have
> space for the installation manual and release notes to fit o/.

BTW, I'll talk about using xz for whole archive try in this DebConf.
(now I submit it)

If you've interested in that, let's discuss

--
Hideki Yamane <henrich@iijmio-mail.jp>


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Old 07-08-2012, 04:17 PM
Adam Borowski
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 08:42:07PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 16:14 +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
> - ftp, telnet: mostly redundant with wget and nc, unless you really like
> cleartext authentication

I don't get why anyone would talk about "authentication" in the context of
ftp and telnet in this millennium. Both do still see some use for authless
services (downloads, dupload, termcast, ...). For downloads, wget and web
browsers are indeed good alternatives, for termcast you need real telnet but
that's an obscure use.

+1 to dropping them from CD1, of course.

> - jfsutils, reiserfsprogs, ufsutils: obscure

These really need to stay on CD1. JFS in particular used to be the fastest
filesystem not so long ago (for anything but big linear writes, where XFS
was better), and thus is still in quite wide use. Being unmaintained these
days, it doesn't make any sense on new systems, but in a rescue/reinstall
situation, you need such packages at hand.

And isn't UFS still the default filesystem on kfreebsd installs? Of course,
it makes little sense on CD1 on Linux.

> - openssh-server: server, not desktop

Doesn't take much, and for the likes of us, is really useful. Can be
installed from the network, though.

> - deborphan, debfoster: obscure

debfoster is great whenever you care about disk usage. Sure, that is mostly
the case on vservers and the like rather than desktops, but as libraries,
gnome components, random packages you tried once, etc, accumulate, it's nice
to be able to drop unneeded cruft.


--
Copyright and patents were never about promoting culture and innovations;
from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income
and to let businesses get rid of competition. For some history, please read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623
 
Old 07-08-2012, 05:37 PM
Wouter Verhelst
 
Default CD sizes again (and BoF reminder!)

On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 01:17:32AM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 04:36:34PM -0600, Joey Hess wrote:
[...]
> > > - grub-legacy
> > These are all installed by d-i in various situations.
>
> Even grub-legacy?

Yes; d-i in expert mode still has the ability to explicitly choose for
grub legacy, if you really want to.

--
The volume of a pizza of thickness a and radius z can be described by
the following formula:

pi zz a


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