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Old 06-27-2012, 08:50 PM
"Thomas Preud'homme"
 
Default Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and security checking tool

Le mercredi 27 juin 2012 22:22:17, Ian Jackson a écrit :
> Philipp Schafft writes ("Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and
security checking tool"):
> > The package as made hardy useful by Ron Lee's personal vendetta against
> > me.
>
> I searched a bit and AFAICT this is a reference to these threads:
> bugs.debian.org/674634
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2012/06/msg00388.html
> http://lists.keep-cool.org/pipermail/announce/2012-May/000086.html
>
> From
> http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/celt.html
> I see that Ron Lee is indeed the maintainer of celt.
>
> It seems to me from reading these conversations that Ron has no
> vendetta against you. That kind of accusation is totally
> inappropriate.
>
> Ron does indeed have something against the package celt, and his
> explanations make perfect sense to me. That is, he appears to be
> right. He is also doing, AFAICT, the right thing.
>
> I think NMUing the rdepends of celt is the right thing to do, if it is
> necessary. (That is, if they haven't already been updated to turn off
> celt.)

What is the link between celt and ckport? I mean, why does this orphaning
message refers (implicitely) to celt?

>
> Ian.

Anyway, I didn't know this package and it seems interesting. I'd be happy to
adopt this package but since I'm quite busy now it wouldn't make any sense to
adopt it now. I'll add a bookmark for it and will adopt it in september if
nobody does before.

Best regards,

Thomas Preud'homme
 
Old 06-28-2012, 08:01 AM
Philipp Schafft
 
Default Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and security checking tool

reflum,

On Wed, 2012-06-27 at 22:50 +0200, Thomas Preud'homme wrote:
> Le mercredi 27 juin 2012 22:22:17, Ian Jackson a écrit :
> > Philipp Schafft writes ("Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and
> security checking tool"):
> > > The package as made hardy useful by Ron Lee's personal vendetta against
> > > me.
> >
> > I searched a bit and AFAICT this is a reference to these threads:
> > bugs.debian.org/674634
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-release/2012/06/msg00388.html
> > http://lists.keep-cool.org/pipermail/announce/2012-May/000086.html
> >
> > From
> > http://packages.qa.debian.org/c/celt.html
> > I see that Ron Lee is indeed the maintainer of celt.
> >
> > It seems to me from reading these conversations that Ron has no
> > vendetta against you. That kind of accusation is totally
> > inappropriate.
> >
> > Ron does indeed have something against the package celt, and his
> > explanations make perfect sense to me. That is, he appears to be
> > right. He is also doing, AFAICT, the right thing.
> >
> > I think NMUing the rdepends of celt is the right thing to do, if it is
> > necessary. (That is, if they haven't already been updated to turn off
> > celt.)
>
> What is the link between celt and ckport? I mean, why does this orphaning
> message refers (implicitely) to celt?

The CELT problem as been fixed. The problem with Ron Lee is that he
removed all rdepends on libroar wich makes it useless *AFTER* the CELT
problem has been fixed. In fact I know of no problem with libroar wich
justify such a step (-> removing all rdeps means making it unusable for
it's users -> no need to skip it anymore). There are *no* open bug
reports nor was I informed of any problem using another channel.

from libao's changelog (1.1.0-2):
> * End the grief with roar.
> Too many people now have been through all the stages of Denial, Anger,
> Bargaining, and Depression with it, so it's time to accept the only
> sensible course of direct action that remains to preserve sanity.
> Closes: #667039

The bug only asks for updating a recommends after transition (SONAME
change).

I don't see any technical problem in this changelog entry getting fixed.
The other rdepends were removed by him in a similar way.
Also he didn't even tell us (the maintainer team) about those steps. I
found out about this by chance.

In addition I needed to listen a lot to his hate speach against me on
IRC and bugs, ....

As nobody seemd to be interested in this case I decided to leave the
Debian project. I don't see a point in getting flamed for trying my very
best to ensure quality of packages just to finally waste my time by
other people rendering the packages useless.


> Anyway, I didn't know this package and it seems interesting. I'd be happy to
> adopt this package but since I'm quite busy now it wouldn't make any sense to
> adopt it now. I'll add a bookmark for it and will adopt it in september if
> nobody does before.

Thanks for your interest.


> Best regards,
>
> Thomas Preud'homme
--
Philipp.
(Rah of PH2)
 
Old 06-28-2012, 12:05 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and security checking tool

Philipp Schafft writes ("Re: Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and security checking tool"):
> On Wed, 2012-06-27 at 22:50 +0200, Thomas Preud'homme wrote:
> > What is the link between celt and ckport? I mean, why does this orphaning
> > message refers (implicitely) to celt?
>
> The CELT problem as been fixed. The problem with Ron Lee is that he
> removed all rdepends on libroar wich makes it useless *AFTER* the CELT
> problem has been fixed. In fact I know of no problem with libroar wich
> justify such a step (-> removing all rdeps means making it unusable for
> it's users -> no need to skip it anymore). There are *no* open bug
> reports nor was I informed of any problem using another channel.

According to
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=674649
the dependency on celt was removed from libroar on the 6th of June.

> >from libao's changelog (1.1.0-2):
> > * End the grief with roar.
> > Too many people now have been through all the stages of Denial, Anger,
> > Bargaining, and Depression with it, so it's time to accept the only
> > sensible course of direct action that remains to preserve sanity.
> > Closes: #667039
>
> The bug only asks for updating a recommends after transition (SONAME
> change).

This was on the 2nd of June. At this stage, a few weeks before
freeze, libao was inheriting the problems of celt via roaraudio. When
celt is removed by its maintainer, libao would become uninstallable.

Given that you as the roaraudio maintainer had strongly resisted Ron's
efforts to fix this in roaraudio, even to the point of objecting to a
proposed NMU, Ron had no other real option at that point.

I do agree that his words were harsh and it would have been better if
the changelog entry had been more polite. But I don't think it
amounts to hate speech.

> In addition I needed to listen a lot to his hate speach against me on
> IRC and bugs, ....

Unless you have better examples, you are overreacting.

> As nobody seemd to be interested in this case I decided to leave the
> Debian project. I don't see a point in getting flamed for trying my very
> best to ensure quality of packages just to finally waste my time by
> other people rendering the packages useless.

It is of course always sad to see someone leave. Often in the past we
have had people driven out by poor behaviour of other members of the
project. But based on what I've seen I don't think that's the case
here.

The reason I am explaining all this is not to persuade you. I'm
explaining it in the hope that others in the project will see what has
happened and avoid similar situations in the future.

Ian.


--
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:49 PM
Philipp Schafft
 
Default Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability analysis and security checking tool

reflum,

On Thu, 2012-06-28 at 13:05 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Philipp Schafft writes ("Re: Bug#679236: O: ckport -- portability
> analysis and security checking tool"):
> > On Wed, 2012-06-27 at 22:50 +0200, Thomas Preud'homme wrote:
> > > What is the link between celt and ckport? I mean, why does this
> orphaning
> > > message refers (implicitely) to celt?
> >
> > The CELT problem as been fixed. The problem with Ron Lee is that he
> > removed all rdepends on libroar wich makes it useless *AFTER* the
> CELT
> > problem has been fixed. In fact I know of no problem with libroar
> wich
> > justify such a step (-> removing all rdeps means making it unusable
> for
> > it's users -> no need to skip it anymore). There are *no* open bug
> > reports nor was I informed of any problem using another channel.
>
> According to
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=674649
> the dependency on celt was removed from libroar on the 6th of June.
>
> > >from libao's changelog (1.1.0-2):
> > > * End the grief with roar.
> > > Too many people now have been through all the stages of
> Denial, Anger,
> > > Bargaining, and Depression with it, so it's time to accept
> the only
> > > sensible course of direct action that remains to preserve
> sanity.
> > > Closes: #667039
> >
> > The bug only asks for updating a recommends after transition (SONAME
> > change).
>
> This was on the 2nd of June. At this stage, a few weeks before
> freeze, libao was inheriting the problems of celt via roaraudio. When
> celt is removed by its maintainer, libao would become uninstallable.
>
> Given that you as the roaraudio maintainer had strongly resisted Ron's
> efforts to fix this in roaraudio, even to the point of objecting to a
> proposed NMU, Ron had no other real option at that point.

The problem was caused by Ron Lee being very late and not informing
anybody of what he was doing. Something he always does: wouldn't it be
natural to inform maintainers then removing dependencys and requesting
other packages to do the same? this includes openal, cmus and ices2 for
example. don't know a complet list as Ron is not telling anything...

But I thank you very much for suspecting me to break my own package by
fully ignoring it. Why not first cosider the positive case: The
maintainers working on the problem. That was exactly the case. We
checked a lot options and looked up code. Stuff that not happens in BTS
and that takes time. Time Ron was not giving us.


> I do agree that his words were harsh and it would have been better if
> the changelog entry had been more polite. But I don't think it
> amounts to hate speech.

The hate speech was mostly on IRC and mail.


> > In addition I needed to listen a lot to his hate speach against me
> on
> > IRC and bugs, ....
>
> Unless you have better examples, you are overreacting.

see above.

> > As nobody seemd to be interested in this case I decided to leave the
> > Debian project. I don't see a point in getting flamed for trying my
> very
> > best to ensure quality of packages just to finally waste my time by
> > other people rendering the packages useless.
>
> It is of course always sad to see someone leave. Often in the past we
> have had people driven out by poor behaviour of other members of the
> project. But based on what I've seen I don't think that's the case
> here.
>
> The reason I am explaining all this is not to persuade you. I'm
> explaining it in the hope that others in the project will see what has
> happened and avoid similar situations in the future.

I think it will stop happening then a random person in the project can
no longer render weeks of work of other persons perfectly useless.
The project should care more for users than internal conflicts like
this. My users already asking me (upstream) what happend. I would be
glad to spend my time to the Debian project in a useful way. But I don't
see how this is given anymore. Also my users complain about the
situation and I'm not willing to be the person they make responsible for
(because I'm in the maintainer team) packages made perfectly useless by
others.

PS: Release wasn't helpful in this case as well. They tell me they have
no opinion and are not interested in getting this fixed for stable (was
asking *before* freeze). I'm not mad on anyone of them personally, just
I don't think it is the right way to go.

--
Philipp.
(Rah of PH2)
 

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