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Old 06-22-2012, 09:34 AM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

Hi,

two weeks ago we hit a huge milestone with multiarch and wine:i386
became installable on amd64. Last week we hit another milestone so that
ia32-libs became mostly installable (it might still want to remove some
amd64 packages in the process depending on what you have installed).

As a consequence I've already uploaded an ia32-libs transitional package
[1], currently in NEW, that will allow ia32-libs users to easily switch
to multiarch. The transitional package can be removed when nothing
depends on it anymore and ends the nightmare of ia32-libs for good.

But the work is not done yet. There are still some bugs left to fix for
the full multiarch experience:

#677741 ia32-libs: Multiarch issues
-----------------------------------
#677735 freeglut: Please add multiarch support
#675797 sane-utils: should be Multi-Arch: foreign
#651475 isdnutils: support Multi-Arch
#677733 xcb-util-renderutil: Please add multiarch support

And then there is also ia32-libs-gtk [2], which is not yet installable as
multiarch:

#677762 ia32-libs-gtk: Multiarch issues
---------------------------------------
#677787 gtk2-engines-xfce: Please add multiarch support
#677788 lesstif2: Please add multiarch support
#650777 libgnomecanvas: Please mark libgnomecanvas-common Multi-Arch: foreign
#676914 libsasl2-2: binNMU broke multi-arch installability
#650787 libglade2: Please transition libglade2 for multiarch
#676918 libsasl2-2:amd64: Package is MA-same, but changelog differs between architectures after binNMU
#641614 libidl: please convert to multiarch
#641615 orbit2: Please convert to multiarch
#677786 libwmf: Please add multiarch support
#677778 libbonobo: Please add multiarch support
#677779 at-spi: Please add multiarch support

Any help NMUing (if not already in delayed) those package would be
apreciated. If we can get those bugs fixed in the next week then 99% of
the multiarch needs for amd64 will be covered.

If you do test those packages and find other bugs then please report
them set them as blocking the respective meta bug (#677741 or #677762).
Those bugs should also be usertagged with:

user: multiarch-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
usertags: multiarch

That way they count towards the multiarch release goal [3] and show up
on the QA page of the relevant package as blocking that goal.



Dear Release Team,

ia32-libs now builds 2 transitional packages: ia32-libs:amd64 and
ia32-libs-i386:i386. The former depends on the later and the later
depends on all the 32bit libraries that ia32-libs used to contain. This
means that the dependencies of ia32-libs:amd64 are not fullfillable in
amd64 and the package will need some big hammer to get it past britney
into testing, as previosuly discussed.

Upgrading from squeeze to wheezy also needs 3 steps and should be
documented in the release notes. This applies to ia32-libs,
ia32-libs-gtk, wine, any other 32bit stuff for amd64 that switches to
multiarch.

Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)

Help from some native english speaker to write something for the release
notes would be welcome.

MfG
Goswin

[1] http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/i/ia32-libs/ia32-libs_20120616.dsc
[2] http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/i/ia32-libs-gtk/ia32-libs-gtk_20120616.dsc
[3] http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/MultiArch


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Old 06-22-2012, 09:46 AM
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

On Jun 22, Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de> wrote:

> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
Maybe this is easier?

1: upgrade dpkg and apt
2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
3: dist-upgrade as usual

--
ciao,
Marco
 
Old 06-22-2012, 01:32 PM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

On 06/22/2012 05:34 PM, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
>
May I suggest that upon upgrade, we have a debconf message telling
about it? We could add this in base-files or any essential package,
probably one with some debconf messages already in would be a better
pick. Instructions would show, IF ia32-libs old version is currently
installed
AND the --add-architecture i386 hasn't bee done.

I know we have release notes, but some don't know about them or would
simply not read them. A debconf message seem really appropriate IMO.
Something along with:

> It appears that you have an old version of ia32-libs installed in your
> system. Debian now supports multi-arch, and the new version of
> ia32-libs (a transitional package) uses and needs this new feature.
> .
> In order to upgrade the version of ia32-libs in your system, you will
> need to do:
> dpkg --add-architecture i386
> apt-get update
> apt-get dist-upgrade
>
> Until you do this, upgrades of ia32-libs and packages depending on
> it (wine, other examples, etc.) will not be possible. More information
> about this available at: https://wiki.debian.org/<please-fill>

I'm ok to contribute a small patch doing this.
Thoughts? Any English guy to propose a better wording?

Cheers,

Thomas


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Old 06-22-2012, 02:31 PM
Roger Leigh
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:32:15PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 06/22/2012 05:34 PM, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> > Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
> > Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
> > Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
> >
> May I suggest that upon upgrade, we have a debconf message telling
> about it? We could add this in base-files or any essential package,
> probably one with some debconf messages already in would be a better
> pick. Instructions would show, IF ia32-libs old version is currently
> installed
> AND the --add-architecture i386 hasn't bee done.
>
> I know we have release notes, but some don't know about them or would
> simply not read them. A debconf message seem really appropriate IMO.

Could we not introduce the concept of an "upgrade script" into
apt-get which could be downloaded when you run "apt-get update" and
then run during a dist-upgrade? This could handle automation of
any "housekeeping" during the upgrade which would otherwise require
manual work detailed in the release notes.

For example, if the ia32-libs package is installed, this could
automatically update dpkg and apt-get, then automatically add the
architecture and update prior to continuing with the upgrade. It
could also handle any additional work which needs doing before and
after the upgrade of the whole distribution, or any particular
package. i.e. handling any work which the package maintainer
scripts can't safely or sensibly handle.

Doesn't the Ubuntu updater tool do something like this already when
it does a full upgrade between releases?


Regards,
Roger

--
.'`. Roger Leigh
: :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
`. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools
`- GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800


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Old 06-22-2012, 02:36 PM
"Adam D. Barratt"
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

On 22.06.2012 15:31, Roger Leigh wrote:

On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:32:15PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:

On 06/22/2012 05:34 PM, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)

[...]
I know we have release notes, but some don't know about them or
would

simply not read them. A debconf message seem really appropriate IMO.


Could we not introduce the concept of an "upgrade script" into
apt-get which could be downloaded when you run "apt-get update" and
then run during a dist-upgrade? This could handle automation of
any "housekeeping" during the upgrade which would otherwise require
manual work detailed in the release notes.


As a theoretical future enhancement, possibly. That won't help for
squeeze to wheezy upgrades though, as squeeze's apt would need to
include support for it.


Regards,

Adam


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Old 06-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Luk Claes
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

On 06/22/2012 04:31 PM, Roger Leigh wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:32:15PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> On 06/22/2012 05:34 PM, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>>> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
>>> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
>>> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
>>>
>> May I suggest that upon upgrade, we have a debconf message telling
>> about it? We could add this in base-files or any essential package,
>> probably one with some debconf messages already in would be a better
>> pick. Instructions would show, IF ia32-libs old version is currently
>> installed
>> AND the --add-architecture i386 hasn't bee done.
>>
>> I know we have release notes, but some don't know about them or would
>> simply not read them. A debconf message seem really appropriate IMO.
>
> Could we not introduce the concept of an "upgrade script" into
> apt-get which could be downloaded when you run "apt-get update" and
> then run during a dist-upgrade? This could handle automation of
> any "housekeeping" during the upgrade which would otherwise require
> manual work detailed in the release notes.

Hmm, I'm not a fan of upgrade scripts at all. Either it's easy enough to
automate in maintainerscripts or it should get careful review for the
context in which it will be applied IMHO (which means the sysadmin can
run the shipped script manually).

> For example, if the ia32-libs package is installed, this could
> automatically update dpkg and apt-get, then automatically add the
> architecture and update prior to continuing with the upgrade. It
> could also handle any additional work which needs doing before and
> after the upgrade of the whole distribution, or any particular
> package. i.e. handling any work which the package maintainer
> scripts can't safely or sensibly handle.

Shipping scripts to do that would be a first step that makes much more
sense than having it automated at this stage IMHO.

> Doesn't the Ubuntu updater tool do something like this already when
> it does a full upgrade between releases?

There were quite some bugs with that tool AFAIR. Does it also cover
things that are not supported by Canonical? How does the development and
testing of the tool work?

Cheers

Luk


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Old 06-22-2012, 06:14 PM
Bernd Zeimetz
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

On 06/22/2012 07:37 PM, Luk Claes wrote:
> On 06/22/2012 04:31 PM, Roger Leigh wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:32:15PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>> Doesn't the Ubuntu updater tool do something like this already when
>> it does a full upgrade between releases?
>
> There were quite some bugs with that tool AFAIR. Does it also cover
> things that are not supported by Canonical? How does the development and
> testing of the tool work?

I think we can do better than having to rely on a weird tool to fix the issues
we produced by not doing a proper QA.


--
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http://bzed.de http://www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F


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Old 06-22-2012, 06:18 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> writes:

> On 06/22/2012 05:34 PM, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
>> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
>> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
>>
> May I suggest that upon upgrade, we have a debconf message telling
> about it? We could add this in base-files or any essential package,
> probably one with some debconf messages already in would be a better
> pick. Instructions would show, IF ia32-libs old version is currently
> installed
> AND the --add-architecture i386 hasn't bee done.
>
> I know we have release notes, but some don't know about them or would
> simply not read them. A debconf message seem really appropriate IMO.
> Something along with:

Problem is that frontends will complain about ia32-libs being not
upgradable and might suggest removing it instead of keeping it back way
before that. At the time base-file is upgraded ia32-libs and all other
32bit stuff might already have been removed.

>> It appears that you have an old version of ia32-libs installed in your
>> system. Debian now supports multi-arch, and the new version of
>> ia32-libs (a transitional package) uses and needs this new feature.
>> .
>> In order to upgrade the version of ia32-libs in your system, you will
>> need to do:
>> dpkg --add-architecture i386
>> apt-get update
>> apt-get dist-upgrade
>>
>> Until you do this, upgrades of ia32-libs and packages depending on
>> it (wine, other examples, etc.) will not be possible. More information
>> about this available at: https://wiki.debian.org/<please-fill>
>
> I'm ok to contribute a small patch doing this.
> Thoughts? Any English guy to propose a better wording?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thomas

I don't think that would be of much help but feel free to try it out
with some real squeeze -> wheezy upgrades and see if you see the message
before ia32-libs get removed.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 06-22-2012, 06:25 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

md@Linux.IT (Marco d'Itri) writes:

> On Jun 22, Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de> wrote:
>
>> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
>> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
>> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
> Maybe this is easier?
>
> 1: upgrade dpkg and apt
> 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
> 3: dist-upgrade as usual
>
> --
> ciao,
> Marco

Sure, that would be enough for the 1. step.

There are a few more packages that need to be updated by hand for other
reasons. Anything between dpkg+apt and everything but ia32-libs will be
fine for me.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 06-22-2012, 06:35 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default The future (or non-future) of ia32-libs

Luk Claes <luk@debian.org> writes:

> On 06/22/2012 04:31 PM, Roger Leigh wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 09:32:15PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>>> On 06/22/2012 05:34 PM, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>>>> Step 1: upgrade/dist-upgrade with ia32-libs (wine, ...) held back
>>>> Step 2: dpkg --add-architecture i386 && apt-get update
>>>> Step 3: dist-upgrade (ia32-libs, wine, ... is now installable)
>>>>
>>> May I suggest that upon upgrade, we have a debconf message telling
>>> about it? We could add this in base-files or any essential package,
>>> probably one with some debconf messages already in would be a better
>>> pick. Instructions would show, IF ia32-libs old version is currently
>>> installed
>>> AND the --add-architecture i386 hasn't bee done.
>>>
>>> I know we have release notes, but some don't know about them or would
>>> simply not read them. A debconf message seem really appropriate IMO.
>>
>> Could we not introduce the concept of an "upgrade script" into
>> apt-get which could be downloaded when you run "apt-get update" and
>> then run during a dist-upgrade? This could handle automation of
>> any "housekeeping" during the upgrade which would otherwise require
>> manual work detailed in the release notes.
>
> Hmm, I'm not a fan of upgrade scripts at all. Either it's easy enough to
> automate in maintainerscripts or it should get careful review for the
> context in which it will be applied IMHO (which means the sysadmin can
> run the shipped script manually).

Maybe you shouldn't think of this as a script. Rather think of it as
hints for apt/aptitude to do a dist-upgrade in multiple steps. As you
say the maintainer scripts should do the right thing already. So it is
just a matter of splitting up the package list into smaller chunks so the
upgrade process doesn't explode with a few extra actions inbetween
steps.

For ia32-libs the extra action would be "dpkg --add-architecture
i386". For the kernel/udev the action might be "reboot". Little things
like that. ))

In general the upgrade "script" could consist of lists of white/black
lists of package to be processed in each step and debconf messages being
displayed between steps prompting the user to do certain things before
continuing.

Each time dist-upgrade-by-script is run apt-get would skip all the steps
that produce no change and continue from the first one that does (in
case it was aborted or reboot was needed).

Just an idea. Not that I think this could be done before the freeze.

MfG
Goswin


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