On 06/21/2012 10:09 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> It's all about perspective, though. We use free tools where we can, and
> we try to build free tools where it makes sense. I don't see anybody
> suggesting that we stop having debconf because the only way to get there
> for most people is to use non-free software (the server side software
> that books your train or plane ticket is not free, nor is the software
> that runs your car, the coach that gets you to the airport and the
> airplane itself).
>
For the booking of tickets, (public system) car software, etc., we
have no choice. But for being connected together, we do:
- IRC
- Jabber
- Mumble
- BBB (though you need the non-free flash player)
- Many SIP solutions (some with video)

Also, nobody here ever has proposed to *advocate* for the plane
and bus companies to use non-free software (unless you are... ^-^).

Oh, and if you know any airline using Debian, let us know!

Cheers,

Thomas


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]] Thomas Goirand

> For the booking of tickets, (public system) car software, etc., we
> have no choice.

Sure we have, you can always use a bike or your feet or a sailboat.

> But for being connected together, we do:
> - IRC
> - Jabber
> - Mumble
> - BBB (though you need the non-free flash player)
> - Many SIP solutions (some with video)

None of those provide well-working multi-user video chats, which was
what the discussion started with.

> Also, nobody here ever has proposed to *advocate* for the plane
> and bus companies to use non-free software (unless you are... ^-^).

Nobody has proposed to advocate for google to keep google+ non-free
either, so I don't know why you're constructing this strawman.

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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On 06/25/2012 07:38 PM, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> ]] Thomas Goirand
>
>
>> For the booking of tickets, (public system) car software, etc., we
>> have no choice.
>>
> Sure we have, you can always use a bike or your feet or a sailboat.
>

What does this has to do with using Hangout??? Come on, that is
becoming silly.

>> But for being connected together, we do:
>> - IRC
>> - Jabber
>> - Mumble
>> - BBB (though you need the non-free flash player)
>> - Many SIP solutions (some with video)
>>
> None of those provide well-working multi-user video chats, which was
> what the discussion started with.
>

I don't agree. Have you ever tried BBB or SIP video? Have you ever
asked questions on IRC while watching a debconf presentation,
live videos feed (open source powered)?

All of these work very well. It may (or may not) be harder to
setup, that's right (freedom has a price after all...).

> Nobody has proposed to advocate for google to keep google+ non-free
> either, so I don't know why you're constructing this strawman.
>
Yeah, right! Nobody in Debian has asked M. Balmer to open source
Microsoft windows. Maybe you should propose yourself for such a
job if you think that's realistic.

Thomas Goirand (zigo)


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]] Thomas Goirand

> > None of those provide well-working multi-user video chats, which was
> > what the discussion started with.
>
> I don't agree. Have you ever tried BBB or SIP video?

Yes, I've used both BBB and SIP professionally. They don't work
particularly well across the wide internet. They can work reasonably
well in a small, well-controlled network.

> Have you ever asked questions on IRC while watching a debconf
> presentation, live videos feed (open source powered)?

Yes, and this is something else entirely than having a multi-user
meeting.

> All of these work very well. It may (or may not) be harder to
> setup, that's right (freedom has a price after all...).

IME, they don't. They're unstable, they require fiddling with
firewalls, the clients are generally crap, they don't tolerate packet
loss (HTTP-a-like over UDP, who on earth got that idea?)

> > Nobody has proposed to advocate for google to keep google+ non-free
> > either, so I don't know why you're constructing this strawman.
> >
> Yeah, right! Nobody in Debian has asked M. Balmer to open source
> Microsoft windows. Maybe you should propose yourself for such a
> job if you think that's realistic.

I don't know why you keep proposing more and more outrageous strawmen.

I'm unlikely to continue this discussion, I think it's exhausted itself
and I'm bored of you trying to peg completely insane ideas on me.

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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