On 06/21/2012 02:55 PM, Russell Coker wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> wrote:
>> Seriously, thats all fine stuff, but if having a hangout with 10+ people
>> on google+ helps Debian to get the bugs squashed, I can't see a reason
>> why we should not use it. It is much more pain free to use than any
>> other solution we have in Debian.
>
> One might make such claims about any proprietary product.
>
> What features does Google+ offer that you believe to be lacking in free
> software packaged for Debian? What do you think is the easiest way to fix
> this problem?
It is *easy* to use. It works out of the box. I don't need to tell
people how to use it and what to install. It works with various other
devices. And so on..... I do not believe that your question was serious
anyway.
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06-21-2012, 01:26 PM
Tzafrir Cohen
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On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 03:17:05PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> On 06/21/2012 02:55 PM, Russell Coker wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> wrote:
> >> Seriously, thats all fine stuff, but if having a hangout with 10+ people
> >> on google+ helps Debian to get the bugs squashed, I can't see a reason
> >> why we should not use it. It is much more pain free to use than any
> >> other solution we have in Debian.
> >
> > One might make such claims about any proprietary product.
> >
> > What features does Google+ offer that you believe to be lacking in free
> > software packaged for Debian? What do you think is the easiest way to fix
> > this problem?
>
> It is *easy* to use. It works out of the box. I don't need to tell
> people how to use it and what to install. It works with various other
> devices. And so on..... I do not believe that your question was serious
> anyway.
I note that you have not listed any specific feature lacking on IRCd-s.
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06-21-2012, 01:50 PM
Lars Wirzenius
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As far as I understand, it is entirely true that Google's Hangout,
or Skype, are easy to use. Of the free variants, I mainly have
experience with Mumble, which usually works, but requires tweaking
and configuration to work well.
The other aspect, however, is that Hangout and Skype are not free.
It is not unacceptable for those developing Debian to use non-free
software, or non-free services, but it gets problematic if it's
the common case, or if it is advocated. We, as a project, value
software freedome, and if we choose tools that are not free, we
are not living up to our values as a project.
To find out if a service like this is actually useful for distributed
bug squashing, by all means, let's use the proprietary services. Then
we can find or make the free software to do it with freedom.
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06-21-2012, 01:58 PM
Report from the Bug Squashing Party in Salzburg
On Jun 21, Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> wrote:
> The other aspect, however, is that Hangout and Skype are not free.
> It is not unacceptable for those developing Debian to use non-free
> software, or non-free services, but it gets problematic if it's
I do not remember the social contract discussing services provided by
third parties.
While some people understandably do not like to use proprietary online
services managed by third parties, there is no consensus that using them
for Debian purposes is inappropriate.
> To find out if a service like this is actually useful for distributed
> bug squashing, by all means, let's use the proprietary services. Then
> we can find or make the free software to do it with freedom.
This looks like a good plan to me.
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06-21-2012, 02:02 PM
Russell Coker
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On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Jon Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 10:55:28PM +1000, Russell Coker wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Jun 2012, Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> wrote:
> > > Seriously, thats all fine stuff, but if having a hangout with 10+
> > > people on google+ helps Debian to get the bugs squashed, I can't see a
> > > reason why we should not use it. It is much more pain free to use than
> > > any other solution we have in Debian.
> >
> > One might make such claims about any proprietary product.
> >
> > What features does Google+ offer that you believe to be lacking in free
> > software packaged for Debian? What do you think is the easiest way to
> > fix this problem?
>
> This is getting completely ridiculous.
>
> Indeed, one can setup and run their own IRC server, because it is free
> software.
We have the choice to do that. If there was a problem with IRC clients not
working correctly then setting up a test IRC server to debug the problem would
be a good option. Also as IRC is an open protocol there are a number of
clients to choose from so when (not if) a client doesn't do something you
require there are options.
> Nevertheless, in practice if you want to work on Debian, you connect to an
> already-running ircd on the oftc network. (You could spend time setting up
> and running an ircd, then convince people to connect to it, but perhaps
> that's time better spent *working on Debian*).
Actually I've run an IRC server on a private network for a free software
hacking event in the past.
One thing I've idly considered is running an IRC server at LUG meetings to
coordinate questions for the speaker. I'm not sure how well that would work,
but as I can run my own IRC server I have the option of trying it out.
Google+ over a slow 3G connection probably wouldn't work.
> Likewise, those who find IRC hostile, confusing or simply unproductive,
> could connect to the already running Google+ what-have-you, using an open
> source browser if one so wishes. If it works for them.
I've found Google+ confusing and unproductive. I played with it for a while
but didn't discover anything useful apart from a news feed that was a bit like
twitter but with an allowance of more than 140 characters.
Personally I prefer Jabber. You have the option of using Google's Jabber
service (everyone with a Gmail account has access) or your own Jabber server.
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06-21-2012, 02:04 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
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]] Russell Coker
> What features does Google+ offer that you believe to be lacking in
> free software packaged for Debian? What do you think is the easiest
> way to fix this problem?
Well-working multi-user video chats. I don't think we have any tool
capable of multi-user video chats at all.
As for what the easiest way to fix the problem would be, I'm not sure,
since I'm not an audio/video hacker. There does exist a
proof-of-concept implementation for Telepathy, but it's very far from
finished and production ready.
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06-21-2012, 02:09 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
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]] Lars Wirzenius
> The other aspect, however, is that Hangout and Skype are not free.
> It is not unacceptable for those developing Debian to use non-free
> software, or non-free services, but it gets problematic if it's
> the common case, or if it is advocated. We, as a project, value
> software freedome, and if we choose tools that are not free, we
> are not living up to our values as a project.
It's all about perspective, though. We use free tools where we can, and
we try to build free tools where it makes sense. I don't see anybody
suggesting that we stop having debconf because the only way to get there
for most people is to use non-free software (the server side software
that books your train or plane ticket is not free, nor is the software
that runs your car, the coach that gets you to the airport and the
airplane itself).
The world isn't black and white, it's all about shades of gray and we're
collectively pushing towards the bright end and we have come a long way
already.
> To find out if a service like this is actually useful for distributed
> bug squashing, by all means, let's use the proprietary services. Then
> we can find or make the free software to do it with freedom.
Indeed.
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06-21-2012, 02:10 PM
Lars Wirzenius
Report from the Bug Squashing Party in Salzburg
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 03:58:12PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> While some people understandably do not like to use proprietary online
> services managed by third parties, there is no consensus that using them
> for Debian purposes is inappropriate.
I believe there is a consensus that having the project recommend their
use, or having them used commonly, is inappropriate. I don't think this
is written down in any of our normative documents, though.
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06-21-2012, 02:10 PM
Bernd Zeimetz
Report from the Bug Squashing Party in Salzburg
On 06/21/2012 03:50 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> As far as I understand, it is entirely true that Google's Hangout,
> or Skype, are easy to use. Of the free variants, I mainly have
> experience with Mumble, which usually works, but requires tweaking
> and configuration to work well.
>
> The other aspect, however, is that Hangout and Skype are not free.
> It is not unacceptable for those developing Debian to use non-free
> software, or non-free services, but it gets problematic if it's
> the common case, or if it is advocated. We, as a project, value
> software freedome, and if we choose tools that are not free, we
> are not living up to our values as a project.
>
> To find out if a service like this is actually useful for distributed
> bug squashing, by all means, let's use the proprietary services. Then
> we can find or make the free software to do it with freedom.
Exactly. Or we can even use a hangout to develope a replacement for the
google+ hangout.
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06-21-2012, 02:11 PM
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On Jun 21, Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> wrote:
> > While some people understandably do not like to use proprietary online
> > services managed by third parties, there is no consensus that using them
> > for Debian purposes is inappropriate.
> I believe there is a consensus that having the project recommend their
> use, or having them used commonly, is inappropriate. I don't think this
I believe that this thread shows that this is not correct.
Report from the Bug Squashing Party in Salzburg
