Debian documentation permalinks

05-26-2012, 02:03 AM

Hi there.

First, here's what I'm talking about -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permalink
Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't offer permalinks itself, so hopefully
the above

link won't "rot".

This was initially in reference to the recent spat of comments/opinions to
"Re: Moving /tmp to tmpfs makes it useful".

It's sometimes amusing to watch as helpful enthusiasts try to unravel a
problem.
I nearly deleted the entire thread without giving it a moments thought -
I get

a lot of message list email.

What I noticed by its absence was that no-one linked to official Debian
policy

detailing the choices made and their justification.

Then it struck me that if such a document existed, it would be subject
to change

as Debian policy itself evolved, making any old links nonsensical or
misleading.

So what I'm requesting is that Debian documentation be "permalink
friendly" i.e.

that Debian documentation pages provide permalinks.

It would be even better if they also mentioned the version(s) of Debian they
apply to.

This could be done using the "wayback machine" - here's an interesting
example.

http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Using_the_Wayback_Machine

From this it's possible to specify a permalink URL even to sites without
permalinks, but note that a version being referenced might be missed or
duplicated, so this isn't an ideal solution.

Regards,
Philip Ashmore

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05-26-2012, 05:53 AM

On 05/25/2012 10:03 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:
> Hi there.
>
> First, here's what I'm talking about -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permalink
> Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't offer permalinks itself, so
> hopefully the above link won't "rot".

And here's the permalink to the above article, as it was when the
preceding post was made:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Permalink&oldid=483438630
Or, if you prefer links that don't indicate where they're really going:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=483438630

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05-26-2012, 07:09 PM

On 05/26/2012 06:53 AM, Jonathan Callen wrote:
> On 05/25/2012 10:03 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:
>> Hi there.
>>
>> First, here's what I'm talking about -
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permalink
>> Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't offer permalinks itself, so
>> hopefully the above link won't "rot".
>
> And here's the permalink to the above article, as it was when the
> preceding post was made:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Permalink&oldid=483438630
> Or, if you prefer links that don't indicate where they're really going:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=483438630

I'm happy and sad with this.
Happy that Wikipedia provides permalink support.
Sad that it didn't document it in its article about permalinks.

Is there documentation on this feature somewhere?

Permalinks, along with the fact that MediaWiki is free GPLv2, makes a
compelling argument for moving Debian documentation to MediaWiki.

Regards,
Philip Ashmore

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Subject: Re: [xubuntu-users] Swiss-French Keyboard in Xubuntu 12.04
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Le 26/05/2012 20:59, pao_drop a écrit :

Le 26.05.2012 20:44, TOM TOM a écrit :

On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 9:25 PM, pao_drop <pao_drop@bluewin.ch
<mailto

ao_drop@bluewin.ch>> wrote:

Hello!
I am trying to install Xubuntu 12.04 on an old PC. Everything
works fine, except that
I am unable to find the Swiss-french keyboard in the keyboard
layout list.

Since I am living in Switzerland and speaking - and typing-
french, this is a absolute MUST for me.

The command:

setxkbmap -model pc105 -layout ch -variant fr

works fine, albeit obviously only for the current session.
This in my opinion means that the swiss-french layout IS present
somewhere
in the system.

But how do I get it permanently, not being able to use the
desktop application?
I have tried editing the /etc/default/keyboard file from:

XKBMODEL = "pc105"
XKBLAYOUT = "ch"
XKBVARIANT = ""
XKBOPTIONS =""

to:

XKBMODEL = "pc105"
XKBLAYOUT = "ch"
XKBVARIANT = "fr"
XKBOPTIONS =""

but to no avail!

What am I overlooking??

Regards, Pao

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Hi. You have 2 options from within Settings Manager:

1. go to Session and Startup and add the setxkbmap command as an
autostart app

OR
2. go to Keyboard and then Layout and try to set it up from there

OK! Problem solved!
Instead of looking for the Swiss-french keyboard on either "Swiss" or
"French", I had to look on "German"
To us, member of the french-speaking minority, this does not appear
very palatable!

Regards,

Pao

hi,

a young search on google with word : xubuntu clavier suisse

and the first link give you the correct answer

--
-----------------------

"Les fautes d'orthographes de mes propos sont sous licence Ane bâté 1.0"

« Je pense que la liberté est plus importante que les avancées technologiques. Je choisirai toujours un logiciel libre moins avancé du point de vue technologique à un logiciel non libre plus avancé parce ça ne vaudrait pas que je renonce à ma liberté. Je m'en tiens à cette règle : je ne prends rien que je ne puisse partager. » ( Richard Matthew Stallman )

Stallman is a saint in the Church of Emacs---Saint IGNUcius.

-----------------------

--------------090103030904020606090104
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

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<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Le 26/05/2012 20:59, pao_drop a écrit :
<blockquote cite="mid:4FC12829.5090002@bluewin.ch" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Le 26.05.2012 20:44, TOM TOM a écrit :
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALuxFpk3gMCrHivNiDoxJnuqYGJKU-ONAHxs+R_c31m7ELv3zw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite"> 
 
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, May 26, 2012 at 9:25 PM,
pao_drop <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto

ao_drop@bluewin.ch" target="_blank">pao_drop@bluewin.ch</a>>
wrote: 
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hello! 
I am trying to install Xubuntu 12.04 on an old PC.
Everything works fine, except that 
I am unable to find the Swiss-french keyboard in the
keyboard layout list. 
 
Since I am living in Switzerland and speaking  - and typing-
french, this is a absolute MUST for me. 
 
The command: 
 
setxkbmap -model pc105 -layout ch -variant fr 
 
works fine, albeit obviously only for the current session. 
This in my opinion means that the swiss-french layout IS
present somewhere 
in the system. 
 
But how do I get it permanently, not being able to use the
desktop application? 
I have tried editing the /etc/default/keyboard file from: 
 
XKBMODEL = "pc105" 
XKBLAYOUT = "ch" 
XKBVARIANT = "" 
XKBOPTIONS ="" 
 
to: 
 
XKBMODEL = "pc105" 
XKBLAYOUT = "ch" 
XKBVARIANT = "fr" 
XKBOPTIONS ="" 
 
but to no avail! 
 
What am I overlooking?? 
 
Regards, Pao 
 
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</blockquote>
</div>
 
Hi. You have 2 options from within Settings Manager: 
 
1. go to Session and Startup and add the setxkbmap command as an
autostart app 
OR 
2. go to Keyboard and then Layout and try to set it up from
there 
 
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
 
</blockquote>
OK! Problem solved! 
Instead of looking for the Swiss-french keyboard on either "Swiss"
or "French", I had to look on "German" 
To us, member of the french-speaking minority, this does not
appear very palatable! 
Regards, 
 
Pao 
 
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
 
</blockquote>
hi, 
 
a young search on google with word : xubuntu clavier suisse 
 
and the first link give you the correct answer

<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
-----------------------

"Les fautes d'orthographes de mes propos sont sous licence Ane bâté 1.0"

« Je pense que la liberté est plus importante que les avancées technologiques. Je choisirai toujours un logiciel libre moins avancé du point de vue technologique à un logiciel non libre plus avancé parce ça ne vaudrait pas que je renonce à ma liberté. Je m’en tiens à cette règle : je ne prends rien que je ne puisse partager. » ( Richard Matthew Stallman )

Stallman is a saint in the Church of Emacs---Saint IGNUcius.

-----------------------</pre>
</body>
</html>

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05-27-2012, 12:22 AM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

On 05/26/2012 03:09 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:
> I'm happy and sad with this. Happy that Wikipedia provides
> permalink support. Sad that it didn't document it in its article
> about permalinks.
>
> Is there documentation on this feature somewhere?
>

Generally, a Wikipedia article on a particular feature of web sites
tries to avoid referencing Wikipedia itself as an example.
Wikipedia's documentation on MediaWiki permalinks is linked at the
very top of that article ("For permalinks in Wikipedia, see [Help:Page
history#Linking to a specific version of a page][1]") however, and
there is a "Permanent Link" link in the toolbox in the far left column
of every page, although you need to expand the toolbox to see it.
There are some caveats regarding the implementation of permalinks, so
you may wish to read [1] first.

[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Page_history#Linking_to_a_specific_version_of _a_page
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05-30-2012, 11:29 AM

On 05/26/2012 09:09 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:
> On 05/26/2012 06:53 AM, Jonathan Callen wrote:
>> On 05/25/2012 10:03 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:
>>> Hi there.
>>>
>>> First, here's what I'm talking about -
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permalink
>>> Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't offer permalinks itself, so
>>> hopefully the above link won't "rot".
>>
>> And here's the permalink to the above article, as it was when the
>> preceding post was made:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Permalink&oldid=483438630
>> Or, if you prefer links that don't indicate where they're really going:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=483438630
>
> I'm happy and sad with this.
> Happy that Wikipedia provides permalink support.
> Sad that it didn't document it in its article about permalinks.
>
> Is there documentation on this feature somewhere?
>
> Permalinks, along with the fact that MediaWiki is free GPLv2, makes a
> compelling argument for moving Debian documentation to MediaWiki.

Which documentation are you talking about? Most official documentation
should have a fixed URL.

If you are talking about the wiki: retrieving a fixed version from
moinmoin is the same as in mediawiki.

So I can't see a useful argument here, only FUD trying to talk people
into using Mediawiki.

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05-30-2012, 12:20 PM

On 30/05/12 12:29, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

On 05/26/2012 09:09 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:

On 05/26/2012 06:53 AM, Jonathan Callen wrote:

On 05/25/2012 10:03 PM, Philip Ashmore wrote:

Hi there.

First, here's what I'm talking about -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permalink
Unfortunately Wikipedia doesn't offer permalinks itself, so
hopefully the above link won't "rot".

And here's the permalink to the above article, as it was when the
preceding post was made:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Permalink&oldid=483438630
Or, if you prefer links that don't indicate where they're really going:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=483438630

I'm happy and sad with this.
Happy that Wikipedia provides permalink support.
Sad that it didn't document it in its article about permalinks.

Is there documentation on this feature somewhere?

Permalinks, along with the fact that MediaWiki is free GPLv2, makes a
compelling argument for moving Debian documentation to MediaWiki.

Which documentation are you talking about? Most official documentation
should have a fixed URL.

If you are talking about the wiki: retrieving a fixed version from
moinmoin is the same as in mediawiki.

So I can't see a useful argument here, only FUD trying to talk people
into using Mediawiki.

Hi there and thanks for your feedback.

I'm talking about the fact that Debian has mail archives that may include links
to documentation that has changed since the mail was written, possibly rendering
the mail thread misleading or nonsensical.

Any documentation system that can provide a means to refer to a specific version
(permalinks) would be better than what's there now.
This would
1. prevent link rot (moved documentation)
2. allow someone who finds an archived email that refers to Debian documentation
to see the version being referred to, not the current version

In summary would be useful if Debian documentation included the names of the
versions it referred to, a permalink to the version you're reading, and some
way of indicating if an updated version is available.

I merely suggested MediaWiki as Wikipedia uses it.

From past experience I know that if you're documenting say a class library then
it helps if you use the same documentation style as the toolkit it's based on,
so you (and your readers) can focus on the contents and not the documentation
style itself.

By the way, this extends to man/info pages too, but as they're versioned, you
can refer to a specific version through the package version.

I still haven't figured out how to downgrade my installed packages to a
particular update date, i.e. "revert the upgrades I just ran, I had Sid enabled
by mistake".

This all goes to providing something that can be referred to after the fact.

Regards,
Philip Ashmore

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05-30-2012, 04:17 PM

On 2012-05-30 13:20:24 +0100 (+0100), Philip Ashmore wrote:
[...]
> By the way, this extends to man/info pages too, but as they're
> versioned, you can refer to a specific version through the package
> version.
[...]

I've always liked the way OpenBSD provides Web-indexed manpages
versioned by OS release, so I can refer someone to documentation for
a particular command in the context of how it worked and what
options it supported as of a particular stable release version.

Granted, they have the luxury that their manpages for the core
distirbution are aggregated together in any given release already,
not scattered amongst numerous individual packages.
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05-30-2012, 04:32 PM

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 12:17 PM, The Fungi <fungi@yuggoth.org> wrote:
> On 2012-05-30 13:20:24 +0100 (+0100), Philip Ashmore wrote:
> [...]
>> By the way, this extends to man/info pages too, but as they're
>> versioned, you can refer to a specific version through the package
>> version.
> [...]
>
> I've always liked the way OpenBSD provides Web-indexed manpages
> versioned by OS release, so I can refer someone to documentation for
> a particular command in the context of how it worked and what
> options it supported as of a particular stable release version.
>
> Granted, they have the luxury that their manpages for the core
> distirbution are aggregated together in any given release already,
> not scattered amongst numerous individual packages.

Dustin Kirkland maintains something similar for Ubuntu:
manpages.ubuntu.com The code he uses to generate it is available at
https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manpage-repository

-- Andrew Starr-Bochicchio

Ubuntu Developer <https://launchpad.net/~andrewsomething>
Debian Maintainer
<http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=a.starr.b%40gmail.com>
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05-30-2012, 04:35 PM

On 30/05/12 17:17, The Fungi wrote:
> On 2012-05-30 13:20:24 +0100 (+0100), Philip Ashmore wrote:
> [...]
>> By the way, this extends to man/info pages too, but as they're
>> versioned, you can refer to a specific version through the package
>> version.
> [...]
>
> I've always liked the way OpenBSD provides Web-indexed manpages
> versioned by OS release, so I can refer someone to documentation for
> a particular command in the context of how it worked and what
> options it supported as of a particular stable release version.
>
> Granted, they have the luxury that their manpages for the core
> distirbution are aggregated together in any given release already,
> not scattered amongst numerous individual packages.
>

Isn't it possible to extract those from snapshot.debian.org
per-release/per-time ?

--
Regards,
Dmitrijs.

05-30-2012, 04:45 PM

On 2012-05-30 17:35:14 +0100 (+0100), Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote:
> Isn't it possible to extract those from snapshot.debian.org
> per-release/per-time ?

Sure, or archive.d.o, but at my day job a lot of the admins I work
with would be hard-pressed to be able to retrieve and extract the
docs from an arbitrary DEB without a lot of instruction... they're
just fine with using Web browsers though since that's how they get
to "the Google" already.

It sounds like Ubuntu already have a good solution at manpages.u.c,
and have worked through a lot of the tougher issues (like
internalionalized indexing, which I hadn't even thought about).
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