On Apr 29, Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> wrote:

> > What kind of disruption are you thinking about?
> Existing users who are familiar with Exim and who would get Postfix on a
> new install and be surprised.
This does not really look like a big surprise.
If somebody is familiar enough with Exim to modify the default configuration
then I think it is safe to assume that he also knows how to install the
package.

> The giant endless flamewars on debian-devel required to make a decision to
> change anything.
IIRC, last time we discussed this I think that even the exim maintainers
were in favour of the change...

--
ciao,
Marco

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 19:08:56 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Apr 2012, Julien Cristau wrote:
> > The 500 packages that would have to change their Depends from "exim4 |
> > mta" to something else.
>
> We're already on our way to update them with "default-mta |
> mail-transport-agent".
>
On a very slow way. I know. That's beside the point.

> That would provide an incentive to finish converting the dependencies :-)
>
If you need disruption to do it then probably changing the default isn't
all that important.

Cheers,
Julien

On Apr 29, Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> wrote:

> The giant endless flamewars on debian-devel required to make a decision to
> change anything.
Unrelated: you have just shown what poisons Debian and has been keeping
us behind innovation for the last years.
Not the flamewars themselves, most of us are grown ups and can handle
them, but the fear that proposing a change will cause endless
discussions and no results.

--
ciao,
Marco

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 07:16:18PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > The giant endless flamewars on debian-devel required to make a decision to
> > change anything.
> IIRC, last time we discussed this I think that even the exim maintainers
> were in favour of the change...
What were the reasons?

--
WBR, wRAR

On 12831 March 1977, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> Is this the right time to do it?

No.

It never will be.

It's insane to even think of switching one full featured MTA against
another full featured one. It feels like "gosh, i dislike $onepiece,
lets all move to $differentpiece", though both are bad as default.

If you really want to invest work, the time is much better spent in
getting one of those tiny replacements a default. And then anyone who
wants/needs a real one can change. Much more useful that way.

--
bye, Joerg
Die dümmsten Hähne haben die dicksten Eier.


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Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> It's insane to even think of switching one full featured MTA against
> another full featured one. It feels like "gosh, i dislike $onepiece,
> lets all move to $differentpiece", though both are bad as default.

Yeah, Debian has certianly never done that before ..
(Remember smail? It's still mentioned in Policy even!)

> If you really want to invest work, the time is much better spent in
> getting one of those tiny replacements a default. And then anyone who
> wants/needs a real one can change. Much more useful that way.

That would be a fairly viable route. Although it slightly begs the
question of what task-mail-server would then pull in instead.

--
see shy jo

On Sun, 2012-04-29 at 03:13 +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> Is this the right time to do it?
I'd vote for it

Or better said for depending on a default-mta which is going to be
postifx, as already outlined.


Cheers,
Chris.

* Joey Hess [2012-04-29 14:22 -0400]:
> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > It's insane to even think of switching one full featured MTA against
> > another full featured one. It feels like "gosh, i dislike $onepiece,
> > lets all move to $differentpiece", though both are bad as default.

Looks like the DragonFly Mail Agent (dma), which already has been
mentioned in this thread, could become a decent default for Wheezy+1
after some small changes.

In a nutshell: it's able to deliver locally and remotely, has a queue,
supports TLS/SSL, does not listen on port 25 and instead of running as
daemon, it if run every 5 minutes via cron to flush the queue. Maybe it
could be changed to use incron and not cron on Linux. It's
README.Debian contains more verbose information.

It currently lacks support for .forward files, ignores -bs, misses -F,
ignores -om and the newaliases command exits with 1 if run without
arguments. I'm nore sure if the latter two are problematic.


> Yeah, Debian has certianly never done that before ..
> (Remember smail? It's still mentioned in Policy even!)

JFTR: According to [1] and [2], the reason to switch away from smail was
that exim are easier to configure.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1998/11/msg00415.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/1998/11/msg00489.html


> > If you really want to invest work, the time is much better spent in
> > getting one of those tiny replacements a default. And then anyone who
> > wants/needs a real one can change. Much more useful that way.
>
> That would be a fairly viable route. Although it slightly begs the
> question of what task-mail-server would then pull in instead.

If there will ever be a Debian user survey (again?), this question would
be a good fit. At least GRML did user surveys in the past:
http://grml.org/survey2011-results/


Carsten


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On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:50:45PM +0200, Carsten Hey wrote:
> Looks like the DragonFly Mail Agent (dma), which already has been
> mentioned in this thread, could become a decent default for Wheezy+1
> after some small changes.
>
> In a nutshell: it's able to deliver locally and remotely, has a queue,
> supports TLS/SSL, does not listen on port 25 and instead of running as
> daemon, it if run every 5 minutes via cron to flush the queue.

I hope you mean: to run retries (in which case every 5 minutes is an
overkill).

Delaying every outgoing mail by 5 minutes doesn't sound like a good idea to
me.

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Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> writes:
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:50:45PM +0200, Carsten Hey wrote:

>> Looks like the DragonFly Mail Agent (dma), which already has been
>> mentioned in this thread, could become a decent default for Wheezy+1
>> after some small changes.
>>
>> In a nutshell: it's able to deliver locally and remotely, has a queue,
>> supports TLS/SSL, does not listen on port 25 and instead of running as
>> daemon, it if run every 5 minutes via cron to flush the queue.

> I hope you mean: to run retries (in which case every 5 minutes is an
> overkill).

> Delaying every outgoing mail by 5 minutes doesn't sound like a good idea
> to me.

I think that was Carsten's point about switching to incron, which would
then do the right thing for new outgoing mail. You'd still need timed
handling of queued mail for retries.

(I was not previously familiar with incron; what a neat idea!)

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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