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Old 04-07-2008, 01:04 PM
Christoph Haas
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

Fellow earthicans...

as part of Google's Summer of Code we are working the "debexpo" project
which is supposed to create a software basis to run "social
network"-enhanced Debian package repositories. Think mentors.debian.net
with more social interaction like commenting on other people's packages
and perhaps moving part of the "RFS" communication on the debian-mentors
mailing list to the website. mentors.debian.net will start using that
software, too, then.

As soon as that part is done I would like to consider moving the service
to an official Debian machine. I've been sponsoring hardware for
mentors.debian.net for the last years. In my opinion the mentors server
has become an established resource and is used a lot. So I wondered what
has to be done to get it into debian.org hardware. I'd still be willing
to maintain it of course.

What would be needed:

- Python (>= 2.4)
- PostgreSQL
- 10 GB disk space (currently the source repository is just 2 GB)
- Crontab
- Apache, nging, lighttpd...

If everything turns out to work as we plan during our "debexpo" project
we will run as much as possible inside the Python web framework (Pylons)
so there is less to do on the shell and e.g. no proftpd involved
(uploads are supposed to happen through 'dput' and its ability to use
HTTP PUT). The application will work on mod_wsgi or mod_python on Apache
or standalone with its built-in web server that can be proxied by
mod_proxy to a local port.

This does not need to happen before fall 2008. But then it would be nice
if we could move it then. Who is in charge of the debian.org servers for
this matter?

Cheers
Christoph
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Old 04-07-2008, 07:28 PM
Joerg Jaspert
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

On 11348 March 1977, Christoph Haas wrote:

> This does not need to happen before fall 2008. But then it would be nice
> if we could move it then. Who is in charge of the debian.org servers for
> this matter?

Who would have guessed - its DSA, the admins of our machines.

--
bye, Joerg
<Ganneff> kde und tastatur? passt doch nicht mit dem nutzerprofil
"windepp" zusammen


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Old 04-07-2008, 07:38 PM
Christoph Haas
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 09:28:19PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 11348 March 1977, Christoph Haas wrote:
>
> > This does not need to happen before fall 2008. But then it would be nice
> > if we could move it then. Who is in charge of the debian.org servers for
> > this matter?
>
> Who would have guessed - its DSA, the admins of our machines.

Sounds logical. But do I just bug any DSA asking for resources and
that's it? No bribery? No formal process? Very good. I'll try that as
soon as we are ready then. I just have no experience with Debian
machines except logging into them user-wise.

Cheers
Christoph
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Old 04-07-2008, 08:58 PM
Joerg Jaspert
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

On 11348 March 1977, Christoph Haas wrote:

> As soon as that part is done I would like to consider moving the service
> to an official Debian machine. I've been sponsoring hardware for
> mentors.debian.net for the last years. In my opinion the mentors server
> has become an established resource and is used a lot. So I wondered what
> has to be done to get it into debian.org hardware. I'd still be willing
> to maintain it of course.

One problem with hosting it on a debian.org machine is that this might
include software not checked by an ftpmaster/assistant, which might very
well be undistributable by Debian. Which is a *BAD* thing to do on a
debian host. IMO not very likely to get on such a host.


Are you hardcoded to your solution? I wouldn't have a problem if we go
and merge this into dak.ganneff.de - something which I meant to move to
a new host anyway. Which would be a big enough Xen domU on one of my
hosts. *Of* course that would work with dak as the background software
then... Depending on the extras mentors might need it should be doable
by additions to the dak code.

--
bye, Joerg
<exa> Snow-Man: Please don't talk to me. You have demonstrated yourself
sufficiently. There is a serious matter being talked.
<Snow-Man> exa: It's hardly serious, it's about you.


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Old 04-07-2008, 09:09 PM
Christoph Haas
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 10:58:36PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 11348 March 1977, Christoph Haas wrote:
>
> > As soon as that part is done I would like to consider moving the service
> > to an official Debian machine. I've been sponsoring hardware for
> > mentors.debian.net for the last years. In my opinion the mentors server
> > has become an established resource and is used a lot. So I wondered what
> > has to be done to get it into debian.org hardware. I'd still be willing
> > to maintain it of course.
>
> One problem with hosting it on a debian.org machine is that this might
> include software not checked by an ftpmaster/assistant, which might very
> well be undistributable by Debian. Which is a *BAD* thing to do on a
> debian host. IMO not very likely to get on such a host.

The focus of mentors.debian.net is to host source packages that are
supposed to be sponsored. So it's not some weird multiverse non-free
binary warez repository or something. That doesn't ensure that some
packages being uploaded can't be redistributed of course. But the same
might happen with packages uploaded to ftp-master to be checked by the
FTP team.

> Are you hardcoded to your solution? I wouldn't have a problem if we go
> and merge this into dak.ganneff.de

Honestly dak scares me a lot. I tried to get it running with the few
bits of information I could find quite some time ago. I deeply believe
that it's a great repository management software and way more
sophisticated than what mentors.debian.net delivers. And as much as I
hate to avoid double-work I think in this case there are different
goals. dak is rather the industry-grade hardware package backend for
Debian. While the "new generation" mentors.debian.net is more focusing
on the web and social interaction. Besides it's doing QA tasks that I
didn't see in dak. I just don't think this is where dak is heading. If I
think of REVU and PPAs... that's not dak-like at all. And have I
mentioned that dak scares me?

> *Of* course that would work with dak as the background software
> then... Depending on the extras mentors might need it should be doable
> by additions to the dak code.

I may need a glass of Chiraz and the "use the source, Luke" method. But
I'm not really convinced that dak is what I want for this purpose.

Cheers
Christoph

P.S.: I do not endorse the abuse of drugs while coding!
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Old 04-07-2008, 09:20 PM
Joerg Jaspert
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

On 11348 March 1977, Christoph Haas wrote:

>> One problem with hosting it on a debian.org machine is that this might
>> include software not checked by an ftpmaster/assistant, which might very
>> well be undistributable by Debian. Which is a *BAD* thing to do on a
>> debian host. IMO not very likely to get on such a host.
> The focus of mentors.debian.net is to host source packages that are
> supposed to be sponsored. So it's not some weird multiverse non-free
> binary warez repository or something. That doesn't ensure that some
> packages being uploaded can't be redistributed of course. But the same
> might happen with packages uploaded to ftp-master to be checked by the
> FTP team.

Thats the reason why NEW packages aren't visible to anyone except
ftpteam members.

>> Are you hardcoded to your solution? I wouldn't have a problem if we go
>> and merge this into dak.ganneff.de
> Honestly dak scares me a lot.

Its pretty simple.

> and social interaction. Besides it's doing QA tasks that I didn't see
> in dak. I just don't think this is where dak is heading. If I think of
> REVU and PPAs... that's not dak-like at all. And have I mentioned that
> dak scares me?

dak is simple. Really.
Also, you wouldnt have to do the setup.

>> *Of* course that would work with dak as the background software
>> then... Depending on the extras mentors might need it should be doable
>> by additions to the dak code.
> I may need a glass of Chiraz and the "use the source, Luke" method. But
> I'm not really convinced that dak is what I want for this purpose.

Well. I don't think you will get onto a debian.org machine in the near
(or distant) future. I offer you a way out, but it needs dak.

Now, what does mentors do that dak doesnt? It might be interesting to
get that into dak too.

--
bye, Joerg
Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind.
-- Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man
 
Old 04-07-2008, 11:12 PM
Raphael Geissert
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi Christoph,

This is offtopic to your questions, but I should better say this now than
forgetting about this idea:

For the new users registration process what about making mentors:

* require the key to be in a keyserver so it can fetch it from there, and
removing the current 'upload your key' way.
Reasoning: Potential sponsors, in theory, should verify the signature of
package they may sponsor, and in order to do this they need to be able to
get the public key from somewhere. Making this a requirement would also
make people more aware of the keyservers and their pourpose.

* and once the key has been imported in mentors' local keyring, the user
should fetch mentors' public key in order to send an encrypted message
either via web or via email to mentors in a format such as the following so
the new account is created:
Email: john@doe.com
Password: foobar
Reasoning: just like for my previous point, users need to be aware of the
capabilities and uses of GPG/PGP keys. And not to mention that in theory it
is a safer way to transmit passwords over the net instead of dummy https.

A similar process could be used when the user wishes to reset the password
of the web account.

Cheers,
Raphael

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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFH+qpiYy49rUbZzloRAkj+AJ4tmNzRuHrkxRDnIpmTIF inRaA9RACfdbr9
3HLFJ0KptGhomOds4hyqKjE=
=VzVQ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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Old 04-08-2008, 09:14 AM
Christoph Haas
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 11:20:10PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> On 11348 March 1977, Christoph Haas wrote:
>
> > The focus of mentors.debian.net is to host source packages that are
> > supposed to be sponsored. So it's not some weird multiverse non-free
> > binary warez repository or something. That doesn't ensure that some
> > packages being uploaded can't be redistributed of course. But the same
> > might happen with packages uploaded to ftp-master to be checked by the
> > FTP team.
>
> Thats the reason why NEW packages aren't visible to anyone except
> ftpteam members.

Do you fear legal problems? Those packages are not officially available
or endorsed by Debian. And since we threw away the uploaded binary
packages on mentors.debian.net I haven't heard of anyone downloading
those packages for their personal end-user use. I know that the binary
packages were downloaded happily back then and users complained about
the package quality. That made us think and so binary packages were not
available any more. Fortunately most end-uses are not capable of
building a binary package from a source package.

> >> Are you hardcoded to your solution? I wouldn't have a problem if we go
> >> and merge this into dak.ganneff.de
> >
> > Honestly dak scares me a lot.
>
> Its pretty simple.

Then it must have changed a lot in the last years. Especially in terms
of documentation. I'm willing to give it another look then.

> dak is simple. Really.
> Also, you wouldnt have to do the setup.

I would have to deal with the setup for sure because it's the backend
for the software we are running on. The repository structure on
mentors.debian.net is accompanied by an SQL database contaning the meta
information for example (although that's of course a matter of concept
and not hewn in stone). Members can remove their own packages and
comment on them for example. This is likely just not the focus of dak.

> Well. I don't think you will get onto a debian.org machine in the near
> (or distant) future. I offer you a way out, but it needs dak.

I understand well that you prefer to join forces instead of re-inventing
the wheel. But the repository handling code at mentors.debian.net is
just a few KB of code. And since the "python-debian" package is around
we can even drop half of that (back then there was no existing code in
Python to parse control files for example). I assume that dak has more
sophisticated features to deal with multiple distributions, different
queues, override files etc. Thinking of mentors.debian.net we have one
distribution, no (or one) queues, no override files but a sophisticated
database and web system. The focus of mentors.debian.net is not
background processing of package uploads like but giving uploaders
control about their packages once they are uploaded. Discussion,
commenting, rating, automated QA checks etc. Implementing a few features
into dak might be a nice idea but it's a totally different beast IMHO.

I don't refuse to get my hands dirty with dak. But the way you put it
sounds like "screw your plans and enhance dak or good bye dot org". Bear
with me but that sounds like it will stay dot net for while. I don't
mind keeping the service running as dot net if it doesn't fit on dot org
machines well.

> Now, what does mentors do that dak doesnt? It might be interesting to
> get that into dak too.

The sum of what is already implemented and what is intended for the
'debexpo' software is documented at the Summer-of-Code proposal page [1]
and the wiki page describing the result of the discussion on this list
some time ago [2]. There is REVU and the PPAs and according to the
discussion with many people there are prospects for a "simple" but
comfortable and capable/pluggable software to publish packages on the
web. Be it source and/or binary packages. Be it with or without
automated QA checks. I would agree happily if we had a 90% intersection
in dak and debexpo. But I fail to see that. Both just carry the
"repository" stamp.

Cheers
Christoph

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/SummerOfCode2008/debexpo
[2] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsNet
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Old 04-08-2008, 09:20 AM
Christoph Haas
 
Default mentors.debian.ORG?

Moin, Raphael...

On Mon, Apr 07, 2008 at 06:12:25PM -0500, Raphael Geissert wrote:
> This is offtopic to your questions, but I should better say this now than
> forgetting about this idea:
>
> For the new users registration process what about making mentors:
>
> * require the key to be in a keyserver so it can fetch it from there, and
> removing the current 'upload your key' way.

Good idea. Putting that on the todo list.

> * and once the key has been imported in mentors' local keyring, the user
> should fetch mentors' public key in order to send an encrypted message
> either via web or via email to mentors in a format such as the following so
> the new account is created:
> Email: john@doe.com
> Password: foobar

Sounds like the way Ubuntu verifies members' keys and in the process
gets their "EULA" accepted. Yes, let's steal that idea.

Thanks for your ideas.

Christoph
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