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Old 03-11-2012, 02:53 AM
"brian m. carlson"
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 01:39:13AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:00:30AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Your complaint, then, is against those who use the law to restrict your
> > use of your legally-acquired DVD or Blu-Ray disc and disingenuously call
> > it “protection”. It is misdirected against the Debian project.
>
> In other words, until non-US comes back, d-m.o can't go away.

I think this demonstrates a lack of understanding about non-US. non-US
was for things that could be legally used everywhere, but could not be
*exported* from the US without serious hassle. non-US was *not* for
things which could not legally be used in the US.

And I would like to point out, for the record, that it is not only the
US that has stupid laws. Yes, we certainly have more than our share,
but, for example, Germany has stupid laws that prevent certain video
games from being played, and Australia also has stupid video game laws
that could be interpreted as being binding against Debian. I'm sure
that every country has laws which are problematic; don't blame it all on
the US.

--
brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US
+1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only
OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187
 
Old 03-11-2012, 07:16 AM
Adam Borowski
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 03:53:18AM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 01:39:13AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:00:30AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > Your complaint, then, is against those who use the law to restrict your
> > > use of your legally-acquired DVD or Blu-Ray disc and disingenuously call
> > > it “protection”. It is misdirected against the Debian project.
> >
> > In other words, until non-US comes back, d-m.o can't go away.
>
> I think this demonstrates a lack of understanding about non-US. non-US
> was for things that could be legally used everywhere, but could not be
> *exported* from the US without serious hassle. non-US was *not* for
> things which could not legally be used in the US.

Old non-US did, yeah. The new need for geographically limited distribution
has different rules.

> And I would like to point out, for the record, that it is not only the
> US that has stupid laws. Yes, we certainly have more than our share,
> but, for example, Germany has stupid laws that prevent certain video
> games from being played,

Yet I don't see [Free]Doom excluded from Debian while decss is. That's the
big difference here.

> and Australia also has stupid video game laws that could be interpreted as
> being binding against Debian.

And Debian carries, say, Nethack, which has a sex scene (several lines of
text, but still...).

> I'm sure that every country has laws which are problematic; don't blame it
> all on the US.

When the totem law of Kbanga declares that displaying any words with two
consonant clusters is illegal on Fridays, the rest of the world doesn't
suffer. Being able to pop in a DVD and play it is something an average
person takes for granted. If oppressive laws in a single country stop a
good part of multimedia functionality, why should that functionality be
taken away from everyone else?


Meow!
--
// If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately
// cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple
// of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all
// your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices.
 
Old 03-11-2012, 07:37 AM
Mike Hommey
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 09:16:47AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 03:53:18AM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> > On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 01:39:13AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > > On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:00:30AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > > Your complaint, then, is against those who use the law to restrict your
> > > > use of your legally-acquired DVD or Blu-Ray disc and disingenuously call
> > > > it “protection”. It is misdirected against the Debian project.
> > >
> > > In other words, until non-US comes back, d-m.o can't go away.
> >
> > I think this demonstrates a lack of understanding about non-US. non-US
> > was for things that could be legally used everywhere, but could not be
> > *exported* from the US without serious hassle. non-US was *not* for
> > things which could not legally be used in the US.
>
> Old non-US did, yeah. The new need for geographically limited distribution
> has different rules.
>
> > And I would like to point out, for the record, that it is not only the
> > US that has stupid laws. Yes, we certainly have more than our share,
> > but, for example, Germany has stupid laws that prevent certain video
> > games from being played,
>
> Yet I don't see [Free]Doom excluded from Debian while decss is. That's the
> big difference here.
>
> > and Australia also has stupid video game laws that could be interpreted as
> > being binding against Debian.
>
> And Debian carries, say, Nethack, which has a sex scene (several lines of
> text, but still...).
>
> > I'm sure that every country has laws which are problematic; don't blame it
> > all on the US.
>
> When the totem law of Kbanga declares that displaying any words with two
> consonant clusters is illegal on Fridays, the rest of the world doesn't
> suffer. Being able to pop in a DVD and play it is something an average
> person takes for granted. If oppressive laws in a single country stop a
> good part of multimedia functionality, why should that functionality be
> taken away from everyone else?

The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
This is a very different situation.

Mike


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Old 03-11-2012, 07:48 AM
Luk Claes
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On 03/11/2012 09:37 AM, Mike Hommey wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 09:16:47AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 03:53:18AM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
>>> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 01:39:13AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:00:30AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
>>>>> Your complaint, then, is against those who use the law to restrict your
>>>>> use of your legally-acquired DVD or Blu-Ray disc and disingenuously call
>>>>> it “protection”. It is misdirected against the Debian project.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, until non-US comes back, d-m.o can't go away.
>>>
>>> I think this demonstrates a lack of understanding about non-US. non-US
>>> was for things that could be legally used everywhere, but could not be
>>> *exported* from the US without serious hassle. non-US was *not* for
>>> things which could not legally be used in the US.
>>
>> Old non-US did, yeah. The new need for geographically limited distribution
>> has different rules.
>>
>>> And I would like to point out, for the record, that it is not only the
>>> US that has stupid laws. Yes, we certainly have more than our share,
>>> but, for example, Germany has stupid laws that prevent certain video
>>> games from being played,
>>
>> Yet I don't see [Free]Doom excluded from Debian while decss is. That's the
>> big difference here.
>>
>>> and Australia also has stupid video game laws that could be interpreted as
>>> being binding against Debian.
>>
>> And Debian carries, say, Nethack, which has a sex scene (several lines of
>> text, but still...).
>>
>>> I'm sure that every country has laws which are problematic; don't blame it
>>> all on the US.
>>
>> When the totem law of Kbanga declares that displaying any words with two
>> consonant clusters is illegal on Fridays, the rest of the world doesn't
>> suffer. Being able to pop in a DVD and play it is something an average
>> person takes for granted. If oppressive laws in a single country stop a
>> good part of multimedia functionality, why should that functionality be
>> taken away from everyone else?
>
> The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
> This is a very different situation.

Why so? If I make a copy for backup and want to use it, how would I do
that without use of decss or similar? Or is making a backup copy no
legitimate use anymore?

I think it's very stupid to make it illegal to distribute software just
because it *can* be used illegaly. One always punishes the legitimate
users in such cases and introduces an alternative (sometimes illegal)
distribution channel of the software.

Cheers

Luk


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Old 03-11-2012, 07:50 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On 03/11/2012 04:16 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> When the totem law of Kbanga declares that displaying any words with two
> consonant clusters is illegal on Fridays, the rest of the world doesn't
> suffer. Being able to pop in a DVD and play it is something an average
> person takes for granted. If oppressive laws in a single country stop a
> good part of multimedia functionality, why should that functionality be
> taken away from everyone else?
>
I wholeheartedly agree with the above. However, the issue here is mainly
that
DVD are encrypted in the first place (IMO, they shouldn't be), and that
apart
from Dr. Stallman who decided to not use them, nobody cares about that fact.

Thomas


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Old 03-11-2012, 07:56 AM
Russ Allbery
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Luk Claes <luk@debian.org> writes:
> On 03/11/2012 09:37 AM, Mike Hommey wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 09:16:47AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:

>>> When the totem law of Kbanga declares that displaying any words with
>>> two consonant clusters is illegal on Fridays, the rest of the world
>>> doesn't suffer. Being able to pop in a DVD and play it is something
>>> an average person takes for granted. If oppressive laws in a single
>>> country stop a good part of multimedia functionality, why should that
>>> functionality be taken away from everyone else?

>> The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
>> This is a very different situation.

> Why so?

Because it's not illegal in just Kbanga. The content providers are doing
their best to make it illegal everywhere, and would potentially harass
Debian as an organization in rather more than just one country if we
distribute decss. It therefore doesn't constitute the case of "oppressive
laws in a single country" in the above paragraph.

(This is apart from the other problem that the US is, for better or ill
and frequently both, not just a single country from the perspective of
Debian governance, both because of the US's position in terms of project
membership and server placement and because it's the home country of
Software in the Public Interest. Debian would similarly be strongly
affected by laws in Germany or the UK or another country where we have a
lot of developers and infrastructure, and rather less by laws in countries
were we have far less infrastructure, money, legal existence, or
developers.)

> If I make a copy for backup and want to use it, how would I do that
> without use of decss or similar? Or is making a backup copy no
> legitimate use anymore?

> I think it's very stupid to make it illegal to distribute software just
> because it *can* be used illegaly. One always punishes the legitimate
> users in such cases and introduces an alternative (sometimes illegal)
> distribution channel of the software.

I doubt many people on debian-devel would disagree with any of this, but
the reality is that the content providers are convincing governments to do
something really stupid. And while we can all feel that this is, indeed,
really stupid, that doesn't change the legal realities of the situation
for the project.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Old 03-11-2012, 08:02 AM
Eric Valette
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

When the totem law of Kbanga declares that displaying any words with two
consonant clusters is illegal on Fridays, the rest of the world doesn't
suffer. Being able to pop in a DVD and play it is something an average
person takes for granted. If oppressive laws in a single country stop a
good part of multimedia functionality, why should that functionality be
taken away from everyone else?


The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
This is a very different situation.


Again, I can understand the reasons, but an average user expects to be
able to read dvd or blue-ray or to get a decent multimedia player.


Other distribution do have ways to provide it to their users.

Actually official debian does not offers this and is furthermore
criticizing good willing people that try to make Debian useable a
multimedia/HTPC system.


Some of the messages asking to help instead of complaining are in my
view a bit reverted has debian-multimedia has been providing good
package for ages and some debian people did prefer to reinvent the wheel.


You can tomorrow take the packaging done and integrate the non law
encumbered packages into normal debian repository or enhance them if it
does not strictly adhere to Debian standard.


--eric


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Old 03-11-2012, 09:39 AM
Holger Levsen
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Sonntag, 11. Mrz 2012, Eric Valette wrote:
> Actually official debian does not offers this and is furthermore
> criticizing good willing people that try to make Debian useable a
> multimedia/HTPC system.

official Debian is not criticising anyone here. This is just debian-
devel@l.d.o: some people ranting, some discussing and some totally off
anything and everything. Oh, and occisionally some good stuff too


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Old 03-11-2012, 10:28 AM
Eric Valette
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Actually official debian does not offers this and is furthermore
criticizing good willing people that try to make Debian useable in a
multimedia/HTPC system.


official Debian is not criticising anyone here. This is just debian-
devel@l.d.o: some people ranting, some discussing and some totally off
anything and everything. Oh, and occisionally some good stuff too



Original part of the post that I found not acceptable is at

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/03/msg00151.html

Author does not seem to care about people not being able to play dvd or
various multimedia format or have good multimedia player because of the
strict gpl compliance or stupid law.


Ubuntu at least provide an official package that get libdvdcss from
medibuntu...


You must consider your user. You must consider your legal obligation
too. Today debian-multimedia is a path that enable to run debian and to
still have the necessary tools to make it acceptable for average people
for their multimedia tasks.


Author seems also to not remember debian-multimedia was there long
before official blessed debian multimedia team even started and decided
to go their own way.


Will try to shut up now.

-- eric


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Old 03-11-2012, 09:23 PM
Ben Finney
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Eric Valette <eric.valette@free.fr> writes:

> Again, I can understand the reasons, but an average user expects to be
> able to read dvd or blue-ray or to get a decent multimedia player.

People are right to expect free use of the things they acquire legally.
That doesn't change the fact that the copyright and patent laws, which
are outside the control of the Debian project, restrict that freedom.

> Other distribution do have ways to provide it to their users.

What concrete action of those other distributions do you suggest the
Debian project should do?

Do those actions, that you think Debian should emulate, involve
violating the law, or violating Debian's social contract, or increasing
the burden on our security team? If any of those, that may tell you why
it's not already being done.

> You can tomorrow take the packaging done and integrate the non law
> encumbered packages into normal debian repository or enhance them if
> it does not strictly adhere to Debian standard.

My understanding of reading this thread so far is that those packages
that meet Debian's standards *are* being integrated into Debian.

--
“Jury: A group of 12 people, who, having lied to the judge |
` about their health, hearing, and business engagements, have |
_o__) failed to fool him.” —Henry L. Mencken |
Ben Finney


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