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Old 03-19-2012, 04:09 AM
Romain Beauxis
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

2012/3/18 Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org>:
> On 03/18/2012 08:53 AM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
>> It's a cliche comparison but still, CSS decryption is the knife and
>> DMCA is the murder; the fact that murder is illegal does not imply
>> that knives are.
>>
> Well, the whole concept of DMCA is to make knives illegal!
> Please read a bit more about it before making such wrong statement here.

That was a cliche, indeed. The main point remains: does using
libdvdcss, for instance, for watching a DVD using a multimedia player
installed in millions of other computers qualify as an "circumvention
of technological barriers for using a digital good in certain ways
which the rightsholders do not wish to allow."? Rightsholders
certainly wish to allow DVDs owners to watch them privately...

As I was reading recently, it's always good to remember that law is a
liberal art degree, not an engineering degree :-)

I think this is probably enough OT from me on this thread, sorry for
the digression..
Romain


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Old 03-19-2012, 10:02 AM
Arto Jantunen
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Romain Beauxis <toots@rastageeks.org> writes:

> 2012/3/18 Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org>:
>> On 03/18/2012 08:53 AM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
>>> It's a cliche comparison but still, CSS decryption is the knife and
>>> DMCA is the murder; the fact that murder is illegal does not imply
>>> that knives are.
>>>
>> Well, the whole concept of DMCA is to make knives illegal!
>> Please read a bit more about it before making such wrong statement here.
>
> That was a cliche, indeed. The main point remains: does using
> libdvdcss, for instance, for watching a DVD using a multimedia player
> installed in millions of other computers qualify as an "circumvention
> of technological barriers for using a digital good in certain ways
> which the rightsholders do not wish to allow."? Rightsholders
> certainly wish to allow DVDs owners to watch them privately...

The DMCA specifically forbids the distribution of tools that can be used
to circumvent copy protection or other technical limitations included in
the product. The same clause is included in the EU directive as well. It
appears that possession of tools that can be used to circumvent
technical limitations might not be illegal in all countries that have a
version of DMCA, but that doesn't really help Debian.

I'm not sure if it would help if all of the media players Debian
distributes were crippled so that they could be used to play dvd's via
libdvdcss but not copy them (or which is the tool to circumvent, the
decrypter or the copier).

--
Arto Jantunen


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Old 03-19-2012, 10:04 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On 03/19/2012 01:09 PM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
> 2012/3/18 Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org>:
>
>> On 03/18/2012 08:53 AM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
>>
>>> It's a cliche comparison but still, CSS decryption is the knife and
>>> DMCA is the murder; the fact that murder is illegal does not imply
>>> that knives are.
>>>
>> Well, the whole concept of DMCA is to make knives illegal!
>> Please read a bit more about it before making such wrong statement here.
>>
> That was a cliche, indeed. The main point remains: does using
> libdvdcss, for instance, for watching a DVD using a multimedia player
> installed in millions of other computers qualify as an "circumvention
> of technological barriers for using a digital good in certain ways
> which the rightsholders do not wish to allow."?

Providing libdvdcss may be thought as providing others with a tool
that can be used to do illegal copies of DVDs (which the DMCA forbids).
This has nothing to do with using libdvdcss for watching a DVD that
you bought, which libdvdcss makes possible as well.

If that was only me, I'd say fuck the DMCA, and let's provide it in Debian.
But I'm not the only one, and others in Debian think differently. It took
me a few months to understand it, but now I do, and I respect their view
which is that Debian isn't the place to do such activism.

> Rightsholders
> certainly wish to allow DVDs owners to watch them privately...
>

But they do not wish anyone to make illegal copies. libdvdcss makes it
possible to do both, and that's the issue.

> As I was reading recently, it's always good to remember that law is a
> liberal art degree, not an engineering degree :-)
>

That's unfortunately right!

> I think this is probably enough OT from me on this thread, sorry for
> the digression..
>

I don't think that's off-topic.

Thomas


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Old 03-19-2012, 10:22 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On 03/19/2012 07:02 PM, Arto Jantunen wrote:
> I'm not sure if it would help if all of the media players Debian
> distributes were crippled so that they could be used to play dvd's via
> libdvdcss but not copy them (or which is the tool to circumvent, the
> decrypter or the copier).
>
If a DVD isn't encrypted, you can copy it using cat. I don't think that
cat can be considered a tool that is going around protections...

So, IANAL, but IMO the decrypter is the tool to circumvent the protection.

Thomas


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Old 03-19-2012, 11:50 AM
Arto Jantunen
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> writes:

> On 03/19/2012 07:02 PM, Arto Jantunen wrote:
>> I'm not sure if it would help if all of the media players Debian
>> distributes were crippled so that they could be used to play dvd's via
>> libdvdcss but not copy them (or which is the tool to circumvent, the
>> decrypter or the copier).
>>
> If a DVD isn't encrypted, you can copy it using cat. I don't think that
> cat can be considered a tool that is going around protections...
>
> So, IANAL, but IMO the decrypter is the tool to circumvent the
> protection.

The DMCA doesn't apply for DVDs that aren't encrypted (no technical
measures to circumvent). This of course doesn't mean that copying
non-copy-proctected DVDs is ok, the normal copyright laws still apply.

I meant the last part of my previous mail mainly as a theoretical
question about where the limits actually are, but as such it can only be
answered by a court and debating it on this list is fairly
pointless. Considerding that it's getting replies I obviously should
have left it out of the mail.

--
Arto Jantunen


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