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Old 03-16-2012, 09:18 PM
Chris Knadle
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Friday, March 16, 2012 16:30:35, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 03/17/2012 03:16 AM, Chris Knadle wrote:
> > On Friday, March 16, 2012 13:13:30, Patrick Ouellette wrote:
> >> Resampling could be termed a derivative work, not a backup copy since
> >> you are throwing away information contained in the original.
> >
> > That may be, but some source media is > 8 GB such that a direct copy
> > cannot be made onto even a dual-layer DVD, so resampling is the only
> > option if a "backup" (as far as the layman is concerned) is to be made.
> > That this procedure becomes a derivative work simply illustrates one of
> > the areas where d.o and d-m.o philosophically diverge even though both
> > share common ground in trying to support a universal operating system.
>
> I thought that there was some writable DVD 9 available
> on the market. Did I dream?

Not positive, but that might just be marketing. 8 GiB = 8.6 GB

> Also, why not writing the DVD image on your HDD?

Yes, although that defeats the purpose of making a backup to DVD media.

> P.S: You can buy DVDs on the street for 0.5 EUR here, which is
> a major contribution to the film industry...
> I'd be a useless loss of time to do backups of these.

I find it nice to be able to make and use a backup copy of DVDs I own and care
about (and which aren't cheap), use only the copy, then when the copy wears
out, make another copy from the original. This allows things like handing the
DVD to a child, knowing that the child will very likely scratch it up, and not
needing to worry.

-- Chris

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Old 03-17-2012, 04:26 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On 03/17/2012 05:15 AM, Jon Dowland wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 04:30:35AM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
>
>> Also, why not writing the DVD image on your HDD?
>>
> How'd you loan that to a friend?
>

Are you sure you can lend *a copy* to a friend?

> What exactly are you arguing: that someone should never need to resample a DVD?
>

I'm arguing that you may *want* to do it, it might be
*convenient*, but you don't have the rights to do it
in many countries.

I'd be great to hear a French lawyer about down-sampling
(in France, the law allows you to make backups of things
you own, like software or music). But what's for sure is that
in USA or UK, you'd be breaking the DMCA.

Now, I agree that the situation is crap, but in this case, you
should complain to the law makers and to the film industry,
not to Debian, which is also a collateral victim here.

Thomas


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Old 03-17-2012, 04:28 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On 03/17/2012 06:11 AM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
> 2012/3/11 Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org>
>
>> The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
>> This is a very different situation.
>>
> Orly? Do you know of any law and/or court case backing this assertion?
>
> Romain
>
There is a DMCA in both US and UK (at least)...

Thomas


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Old 03-17-2012, 07:08 AM
Arto Jantunen
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> writes:

> On 03/17/2012 06:11 AM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
>> 2012/3/11 Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org>
>>
>>> The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
>>> This is a very different situation.
>>>
>> Orly? Do you know of any law and/or court case backing this assertion?
>>
>> Romain
>>
> There is a DMCA in both US and UK (at least)...

The EU has a directive that requires member countries to implement at
least some parts of the DMCA. For example Finland opted to implement the
full thing, and people have actually gotten convictions for using decss
(so far only people who turned themselves in as a protest, however).

The US has a lot of power and desire to push their agenda through in
other countries, which tends to mean that a legal problems in the US
will easily spread to a lot of places. The ACTA and TPPA things are
"nice" examples (they include the DMCA and worse).

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Old 03-17-2012, 11:53 PM
Romain Beauxis
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

2012/3/17 Arto Jantunen <viiru@debian.org>:
> Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> writes:
>
>> On 03/17/2012 06:11 AM, Romain Beauxis wrote:
>>> 2012/3/11 Mike Hommey <mh@glandium.org>
>>>
>>>> The problem is: decss is illegal in very much more than just the US.
>>>> This is a very different situation.
>>>>
>>> Orly? Do you know of any law and/or court case backing this assertion?
>>>
>>> Romain
>>>
>> There is a DMCA in both US and UK (at least)...
>
> The EU has a directive that requires member countries to implement at
> least some parts of the DMCA. For example Finland opted to implement the
> full thing, and people have actually gotten convictions for using decss
> (so far only people who turned themselves in as a protest, however).
>
> The US has a lot of power and desire to push their agenda through in
> other countries, which tends to mean that a legal problems in the US
> will easily spread to a lot of places. The ACTA and TPPA things are
> "nice" examples (they include the DMCA and worse).

Yes, but how does that make decss or other CSS decryption codes illegal?

It's a cliche comparison but still, CSS decryption is the knife and
DMCA is the murder; the fact that murder is illegal does not imply
that knives are.

There are grounds for declaring a CSS decryption code illegal, such as
license and patent infringement but, as far as I know, there is not
existing legal decision on that mater, at least in western Europe.

Furthermore, concerning libdvdcss, encryption keys are generated or
brute-force'd which makes it even harder to argue based on
intellectual property.. Also libdvdcss has never been legally
challenged.

Most of the legal arguments on this matter are based on legal
bullying. There may be some serious threat, though, but I believe that
it is wrong to consider CSS decryption codes "illegal" per say.

Romain


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Old 03-18-2012, 12:24 AM
Christoph Anton Mitterer
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Sun, 2012-03-11 at 10:02 +0100, Eric Valette wrote:
> Again, I can understand the reasons, but an average user expects to be
> able to read dvd or blue-ray or to get a decent multimedia player.
>
> Other distribution do have ways to provide it to their users.

Which distro provides Blu-Ray playback?

Even though there is libaacs and friends now... the MKBs are only
publicly known till version ... what? ... 10?


Chris.
 
Old 03-18-2012, 12:32 AM
Christoph Anton Mitterer
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Sun, 2012-03-11 at 00:56 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Because it's not illegal in just Kbanga.
> The content providers are doing
> their best to make it illegal everywhere, and would potentially harass
> Debian as an organization in rather more than just one country if we
> distribute decss.

In principle you're right,.. but we start to enter a path of doom if we
censor ourself like this...
You'll probably be able to find thousands of places in any distro, where
some patent troll or content mafia organisations pretend to have
"rights" on.
This starts with Redmonds FAT in the Linux kernel over probably
gazillions of Patents of VoIP or other multimedia techniques.

Unfortunately courts in many countries largely follow those evil
organisations.


Cheers,
Chris.
 
Old 03-18-2012, 12:53 AM
Russ Allbery
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Christoph Anton Mitterer <calestyo@scientia.net> writes:

> In principle you're right,.. but we start to enter a path of doom if we
> censor ourself like this...

> You'll probably be able to find thousands of places in any distro, where
> some patent troll or content mafia organisations pretend to have
> "rights" on.

Hence the Debian patent policy.

We can't just ignore things like this, nor is it responsible use of
project resources to openly flaunt disobedience to laws, however
ill-conceived. But neither is it Debian policy to seek out trouble when
that trouble isn't forthcoming.

If you do want to be part of an organization that openly disobeys stupid
laws and makes a point of civil disobedience, more power to you. I
personally will be cheering you on. But the Debian Project is not that
organization, nor is it structured to be that organization (and carefully
structuring such an organization is important). The Debian Project has
other goals, which mostly require that it work within the legal framework
that it has available while making public statements when that legal
framework interferes with project goals.

As individual developers, we can of course support a range of
organizations, from the practical and goal-oriented to those that are more
political, adversarial, or aimed at practicing civil disobedience, as we
feel is appropriate and as match our individual beliefs. It doesn't work
for one organization to try to be all of those things at once.

The situation with decss is not new, and the project has been putting up
with it for quite a long time. The legal situation around DRM and other
content restrictions continues to be troubling, but I don't think anything
has changed about decss recently that augurs a path of doom.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Old 03-18-2012, 04:29 AM
Chris Knadle
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

On Saturday, March 17, 2012 21:53:18, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Christoph Anton Mitterer <calestyo@scientia.net> writes:
> > In principle you're right,.. but we start to enter a path of doom if we
> > censor ourself like this...
> >
> > You'll probably be able to find thousands of places in any distro, where
> > some patent troll or content mafia organisations pretend to have
> > "rights" on.
>
> Hence the Debian patent policy.
>
> We can't just ignore things like this, nor is it responsible use of
> project resources to openly flaunt disobedience to laws, however
> ill-conceived. But neither is it Debian policy to seek out trouble when
> that trouble isn't forthcoming.
>
> If you do want to be part of an organization that openly disobeys stupid
> laws and makes a point of civil disobedience, more power to you. I
> personally will be cheering you on. But the Debian Project is not that
> organization, nor is it structured to be that organization (and carefully
> structuring such an organization is important). The Debian Project has
> other goals, which mostly require that it work within the legal framework
> that it has available while making public statements when that legal
> framework interferes with project goals.

The above explains the whole reason d-m.o exists.

However perhaps it also might explain the tenuous relationship d.o has with
d-m.o because d.o may need to distance itself from the work d-m.o does.

-- Chris

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Old 03-18-2012, 04:35 AM
Russ Allbery
 
Default debian-multimedia.org considered harmful

Chris Knadle <Chris.Knadle@coredump.us> writes:
> On Saturday, March 17, 2012 21:53:18, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> Hence the Debian patent policy.

>> We can't just ignore things like this, nor is it responsible use of
>> project resources to openly flaunt disobedience to laws, however
>> ill-conceived. But neither is it Debian policy to seek out trouble
>> when that trouble isn't forthcoming.

>> If you do want to be part of an organization that openly disobeys
>> stupid laws and makes a point of civil disobedience, more power to you.
>> I personally will be cheering you on. But the Debian Project is not
>> that organization, nor is it structured to be that organization (and
>> carefully structuring such an organization is important). The Debian
>> Project has other goals, which mostly require that it work within the
>> legal framework that it has available while making public statements
>> when that legal framework interferes with project goals.

> The above explains the whole reason d-m.o exists.

> However perhaps it also might explain the tenuous relationship d.o has
> with d-m.o because d.o may need to distance itself from the work d-m.o
> does.

Yup. Exactly. Christian is taking on himself the legal risk of providing
those packages, which the project as a whole can't really do. Discussion
about the confusion that can be caused by some of the other packages he
carries aside (and I do think that issue is real), I for one thank him for
his work.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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