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Old 01-19-2012, 10:47 AM
Arno Töll
 
Default Making mentors.debian.net a .org (was: proposed new pseudo-package 'debian-mentors' for handling sponsoring requests)

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Hi,

On 19.01.2012 05:54, Michael Gilbert wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Arno Töll wrote:
>> On 18.01.2012 08:40, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>>> Dear DSA, do you think it's possible to have a CNAME mentors.debian.org
>>> pointing to mentors.debian.net? It's currently not hosted on a .d.o
>>> machine but AIUI the mentors.debian.net admins are interested to move it
>>> to DSA-managed host at some point.
>>
>> as a maintainer of mentors.d.n I can confirm our interest to make
>> mentors an official Debian service at some point. However, we are not in
>> a hurry to do so immediately and I believe that's something which needs
>> consensus among developers before we can seriously consider that.
>
> What consensus (and from whom) is required here? If I interpret
> things correctly, the DSA team [0] is the group that need to make the
> call. So lets start that discussion with them (well its already
> started with the CC's).

DSA is the team which makes a DNS CNAME record, or provides a hosting
facility. In my interpretation they are not making facts by that. Making
mentors.debian.net a .org makes the project official part of Debian,
just like any other core team, e.g. ftp-master, security team, release
team and so on. That's not something which should be decided without
consensus among Debian Developers and, perhaps, a DPL which delegates
some people to a "mentors task".

Thus, I am sending this mail to -devel again. Maybe anyone wants to
raise the voice on that matter.

>> Moreover, we're lacking Debian Developers interested to join our team
>> which is sort of a prerequisite to integrate a team into Debian's
>> organizational structure.
>
> I am not a DD quite yet, but I'm finishing the NM process right now,
> and as soon as I'm done, I will be very happy to join this team. I
> would hope there are quite a few other existing DDs willing to be
> officially part of the team as well. Is there a list of the current
> official members?

mentors.debian.net went through several generations of developers who
coded parts of it. These days only me (in NM too, but no DD yet) and
Asheesh Laroia (paulproteus) made notable code contributions in the
recent past. I provided Paul Wise (pabs) a root shell last week but I
guess his interest in participation is mostly front-desk-like, e.g. he
helps people in #debian-mentors or writing to our support address who
had technical problems.

I'd be more than happy finding _anyone_ interested to work on our
(Python/Pylon/sqlalchemy) code base. We have really long todo list.

> Anyway, I think if we can get people behind this, we would want to
> make it happen quickly, then the mentors.debian.org psuedo-package
> would be available, and we could straightforwardly implement the
> bug-based RFP process.

That's the plan, but again: tracking sponsor requests as bugs, and
integrate mentors.debian.net into Debian are unrelated problems. Any
proposal can be implemented without touching the status-quo of the other.

> The term "contributor" conveys a
> much more welcoming message as it says "this is the place where I can
> go to learn about start making contributions to debian", and "this is
> where we can go to help people become contributors".

That's the problem. A contributor can have many roles in Debian, it is
overbooked just like terms such as "DSA" and "maintainer" (albeit zack
suggested to come over the latter problem). That said, I don't mind any
other, better name than "debian-mentors" or "mentors.debian.tld", but
"contributor" probably isn't. YMMV.


- --
with kind regards,
Arno Töll
IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC
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Old 01-21-2012, 08:53 AM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Making mentors.debian.net a .org (was: proposed new pseudo-package 'debian-mentors' for handling sponsoring requests)

On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 12:47:59PM +0100, Arno Töll wrote:
> DSA is the team which makes a DNS CNAME record, or provides a hosting
> facility. In my interpretation they are not making facts by that. Making
> mentors.debian.net a .org makes the project official part of Debian,
> just like any other core team, e.g. ftp-master, security team, release
> team and so on. That's not something which should be decided without
> consensus among Debian Developers and, perhaps, a DPL which delegates
> some people to a "mentors task".

Leaving legal issues aside [1], I surely agree that turning mentors.d.o
into mentors.d.o is a worthwhile goal. In our eternal quest to have
enough contributors to keep up with Debian development, mentoring is a
fundamental tool. Giving even the tiniest impression that it is a 2nd
class citizen among Debian services is not good™.

But to do so there are several constraints. The first one is, of course,
getting into an agreement with DSA, as it is up to them to maintain the
*.debian.org DNS namespace. In this specific case this is related to [1]
and I hope we can find an agreement that make everybody happy, and free
of legal risks for all involved parties.

Regarding delegation, it can be done, but it is not necessarily a
requirement. For many technical services we simply have informal teams
that are in charge of maintaining the service. I don't see why the
"mentors task" can't simply be such a team as, say, the QA team that
currently maintains services like the PTS or DDPO.

(There are some advantages with delegations, such as clarifying
Constitution-wise stuff like why some DDs are in some *nix groups and
some others are not. But that comes with important disadvantages, such
as institutionalizing die hard powers we should live without in most
cases. Also, if we opt for delegations, then only the DPL can change
team composition and that can easily become a barrier for contributing
to service maintenance.)

Cheers.


[1] which are being discussed in a separate sub-thread, to which I'll
come back given that I've sought in the past very similar legal
advice for Debian's "PPA" [2]
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2011/06/msg00000.html

--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences ...... http://upsilon.cc/zack ...... . . o
Debian Project Leader ....... @zack on identi.ca ....... o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
 

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