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Old 12-08-2011, 03:39 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

Stephan Seitz <stse+debian@fsing.rootsland.net> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 08, 2011 at 10:25:07AM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
>>I guess mounting /usr is no more complicated than mounting / in
>>initramfs. Finding out what modules and software is needed for that
>>should be the same code as for /.
>
> That depends. I have some systems where all file systems except /boot
> are encrypted. Since I don??t use Debian kernels and initramfs, I
> created a small one myself to ask for the /-partition password. Now I
> would have to put the whole LVM stuff into it, because /usr is on a
> LVM (/ is not).
>
> So it is more complicated.

More complicated for YOUR setup. Not for initramfs-tools in general.

What I mean is that there are already plenty of systems out there that
have / on LVM. Initramfs-tools already knows when and how to include
lvm.

>>One more reason to get away from udev.
>
> Yes, I think too, that udev sucks. Instead of merging / and /usr, udev
> should be enhanced to support runlevels (at least the difference
> between the early boot stage / single user and the multiuser
> mode). There is no need to configure the sound card mixer at the early
> boot stage, and so forcing the user to have /usr on the /-partition.

Hmm, adding the runlevel to the environment should be rather trivial.

Couldn't you even add a rule (first rule to run) to query init for the
runlevel and export it to the environment? And the rule that triggers
configuring the soundcard could then match on the variable.

This idea doesn't sound like it will need changes in udev itself. Just
some configuration.

> Shade and sweet water!
>
> Stephan

MfG
Goswin


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Old 12-08-2011, 04:33 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

Igor Pashev <pashev.igor@gmail.com> writes:

> Goswin, thanks for the explanation.
> Now I'm inclined to move all to /usr :-)

We live to serve.

I'm kind of undecided. I know eventualy this will just work and have
eliminate all those "Hey, I have a strange setup and xyz needs to be in
/ for this" bugs. But I also am damn sure that it will break horribly
inbetween.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 12-08-2011, 04:46 PM
Guillem Jover
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

On Wed, 2011-12-07 at 11:34:34 +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> I am not really looking forward to keep reverting these changes in my
> package, and since Red Hat controls most Linux infrastructure now other
> packages will face the same problem.

I might be missing something but given the link your posted, and looking
at the actual changes in the commit, I only see a change of default
*with* support for the previous behaviour through configure options,
so it would seem you only need to adapt your debian/rules.

regards,
guillem


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Old 12-08-2011, 05:51 PM
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

On Dec 08, Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> wrote:

> > I am not really looking forward to keep reverting these changes in my
> > package, and since Red Hat controls most Linux infrastructure now other
> > packages will face the same problem.
> I might be missing something but given the link your posted, and looking
> at the actual changes in the commit, I only see a change of default
> *with* support for the previous behaviour through configure options,
> so it would seem you only need to adapt your debian/rules.
This is correct, but it is also another step towards requiring /usr to
be available at the beginning of the boot process.
Some (minor) parts of udev already have not worked for quite some time
if /usr is not mounted.

--
ciao,
Marco
 
Old 12-08-2011, 06:00 PM
Wookey
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

+++ Sune Vuorela [2011-12-07 13:05 +0000]:
>
> Recovering involved
> - a base64 decoder written in shell
> - a statically linked busybox
uuencoded and pasted into the console
> - overwriting /bin/ln
> - /bin/ln /bin/ln /bin/busybox

We all had hardcore geeking fun that afternoon :-)

Wookey
--
Principal hats: Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Old 12-11-2011, 12:56 PM
Darren Salt
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

I demand that Stephan Seitz may or may not have written...

> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:34:34AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>> Actually, Red Hat's goal *is* to support a separate /usr, they just want
>> to have the initramfs mount it.

> But as was seen in the last discussion, not everyone *has* an initramfs,
> because it is not needed in many cases or sometimes even not supported on
> the platform.

On any box for which I've built a kernel, there's no initramfs and (except in
one case – netbook) there's a separate /usr. I'd quite like to keep it this
way...

/ (without /usr) is often enough for rescue purposes (and if it isn't, it's
enough to get /usr mounted). And if / is broken, then you have larger
problems anyway.

This mount-/usr/-in-initramfs looks to me like a means of reducing choice.

--
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| ( ) |
| X | ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML e-mail
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Old 12-11-2011, 01:32 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

Darren Salt <linux@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk> writes:

> I demand that Stephan Seitz may or may not have written...
>
>> On Wed, Dec 07, 2011 at 11:34:34AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>>> Actually, Red Hat's goal *is* to support a separate /usr, they just want
>>> to have the initramfs mount it.
>
>> But as was seen in the last discussion, not everyone *has* an initramfs,
>> because it is not needed in many cases or sometimes even not supported on
>> the platform.
>
> On any box for which I've built a kernel, there's no initramfs and (except in
> one case ?? netbook) there's a separate /usr. I'd quite like to keep it this
> way...

To be honest most systems will have /usr localy and mounting it is no
problem at all. So even with moving stuff from / to /usr it should not
be a problem for them to mount /usr verry early during boot and have
stuff keep working.

I don't think anyone is considering moving /bin/mount just jet.

> / (without /usr) is often enough for rescue purposes (and if it isn't, it's
> enough to get /usr mounted). And if / is broken, then you have larger
> problems anyway.
>
> This mount-/usr/-in-initramfs looks to me like a means of reducing choice.

Or as a way to keep choices without complicating the standard case. If
you do want to have a /usr mounted as NFS4 over wlan then you need an
initramfs. If you have it as local partition then you don't. Consider it
from that point of view.


I'm still not for moving / to /usr but lets say I am less opposed now
than I was at the initial mail. If it "breaks" less than 1% of setups
and they need to use an initramfs to keep working then that is probably
ok. Or another process that moves things to the / filesystem on a need
by need basis. It MUST keep working though. Requiring that people
repartition is no an option.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 12-12-2011, 03:36 AM
Karl Goetz
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

On Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:40:36 +0100
Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de> wrote:

> Igor Pashev <pashev.igor@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > 07.12.2011 04:43, Marco d'Itri пишет:
> >> http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/hotplug/udev.git;a=commitdiff;h=12a362be5c1982f80dbfb75bda 070208a2c99cdf
> >>
> >> Discuss.
> >>
> > I don't see any reason to move all into /usr from /,
> > and make initrd for minimal system:

> The initramfs on the other hand is made to fit. So if /usr isn't on a
> networking filesystem (NFS) then you won't get networking stuff in the
> initramfs. No raid then mdadm isn't included. No lvm and the initramfs
> gets smaller again. And only select modules for one kernel are in
> there. Huge space saving again. So an initramfs will/can be minimal.

I assume this means it will be impossible to swap the hdd from one
system to another without rebuilding the initramfs? Seems like a step
backwards for flexability.

thanks,
kk

--
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http://www.kgoetz.id.au
No, I won't join your social networking group
 
Old 12-12-2011, 06:11 AM
Reinhard Tartler
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

On Mo, Dez 12, 2011 at 05:36:41 (CET), Karl Goetz wrote:

[...]

>> The initramfs on the other hand is made to fit. So if /usr isn't on a
>> networking filesystem (NFS) then you won't get networking stuff in the
>> initramfs. No raid then mdadm isn't included. No lvm and the initramfs
>> gets smaller again. And only select modules for one kernel are in
>> there. Huge space saving again. So an initramfs will/can be minimal.
>
> I assume this means it will be impossible to swap the hdd from one
> system to another without rebuilding the initramfs? Seems like a step
> backwards for flexability.

Trimming the initramfs is an *optional* feature.

cf. /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf

Cheers,
Reinhard

--
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Reinhard Tartler, KeyID 945348A4


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Old 12-12-2011, 02:46 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default Red Hat is moving from / to /usr/

Reinhard Tartler <siretart@debian.org> writes:

> On Mo, Dez 12, 2011 at 05:36:41 (CET), Karl Goetz wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> The initramfs on the other hand is made to fit. So if /usr isn't on a
>>> networking filesystem (NFS) then you won't get networking stuff in the
>>> initramfs. No raid then mdadm isn't included. No lvm and the initramfs
>>> gets smaller again. And only select modules for one kernel are in
>>> there. Huge space saving again. So an initramfs will/can be minimal.
>>
>> I assume this means it will be impossible to swap the hdd from one
>> system to another without rebuilding the initramfs? Seems like a step
>> backwards for flexability.
>
> Trimming the initramfs is an *optional* feature.
>
> cf. /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf
>
> Cheers,
> Reinhard

If you swap the hdd from one system to another it doesn't suddenly start
requiring raid support or need lvm. What can be a problem is suddenly
missing the right module for the controler so no disk is found.

This is something you already have for /. Including "mount /usr" in the
initramfs in no way changes this. And default is, as Reinhard says, to
build a big initramfs with lots of modules in there just in case.

MfG
Goswin


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