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Old 11-02-2011, 09:41 PM
Yaroslav Halchenko
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

thanks once again

> Your understanding is misguided. If you intend it to be a user interface,
> it belongs on the PATH. If you don't, it belongs under /usr/lib.

I hear you regarding that ideally they should be on the PATH...
but -- nothing in FHS talks about PATH.

thoughts aloud:

science could indeed be considered a game -- may be I should advise
on such PATH-driven interpretation and ask upstream to place
their binaries under /usr/games then which is in the PATH -- then we
should all be compliant with our intertrepations of FHS damn...
there is only 1 /usr/games so once again -- conflicts conflicts
conflicts

not sure if of any point, since the list seems to be only full of
SPAM I have posted my question to [1].

[1] http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20111102222553.GL10325%40one russian.com&forum_name=freestandards-fhs-discuss

Cheers,

On Wed, 02 Nov 2011, Steve Langasek wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 02, 2011 at 03:53:04PM -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> > Thank you Steve !

> > With all due respect -- I disagree with your lines of
> > reasoning/support.

> > > The per-package subdir should be created instead under
> > > /usr/lib, and /usr/bin/cmtk can dispatch subcommands over there.

> > as I and John argued, FHS doesn't mandate them to be
> > under /usr/lib and actually allows for subdirectories under /usr/bin
> > (more below)

> The subdirectories of /usr/bin that are allowed in the FHS are spelled out
> because they are exceptions.

> > - /usr/lib is destined for
> > "/usr/lib includes object files, libraries, and internal binaries
> > that are not intended to be executed directly by users or shell
> > scripts"

> > so indeed anything which cannot be executed directly -- should go
> > there. But "executed directly" in my understanding is not solely
> > being on the PATH -- if I can execute a tool via
> > /usr/lib/PKG/bin/xxx -- it is direct execution and thus should not
> > be hidden under /usr/lib

> Your understanding is misguided. If you intend it to be a user interface,
> it belongs on the PATH. If you don't, it belongs under /usr/lib.

> It is a bug in the FHS that it allows for this interpretation, but I have no
> doubt that it is a bug and which way the FHS would be clarified to fix this
> hole.
--
=------------------------------------------------------------------=
Keep in touch www.onerussian.com
Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic


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Old 11-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Don Armstrong
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

On Wed, 02 Nov 2011, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
> really? since when it is nitpicking to quote FHS verbatim? once
> again:
>
> "The following directories, or symbolic links to directories, must be in
> /usr/bin, if the corresponding subsystem is installed:
>
> Directory Description
> mh Commands for the MH mail handling system (optional)"

There are exactly two packages in Debian which have subdirectories in
/usr/bin: mailutils-mh, and nmh. Nothing else does this, and having mh
do it in the first place seems to be a historical mistake. [The only
other slight exception is /usr/bin/X11, and we've done away with that
by making it X11 a symlink to .]

A package which uses names that are so general that it conflicts with
existing binary names and thus can't be stuck in /usr/bin by default
probably shouldn't be normally executed directly by users or scripts
in the first place. It shouldn't be encouraged to put such a package's
directories into PATH, either.


Don Armstrong

--
Herodotus says, "Very few things happen at the right time, and the
rest do not happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct
these defects".
-- Mark Twain _A Horse's Tail_

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Old 11-02-2011, 09:51 PM
Karl Goetz
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 18:41:20 -0400
Yaroslav Halchenko <debian@onerussian.com> wrote:

> thanks once again
>
> > Your understanding is misguided. If you intend it to be a user
> > interface, it belongs on the PATH. If you don't, it belongs
> > under /usr/lib.
>
> I hear you regarding that ideally they should be on the PATH...
> but -- nothing in FHS talks about PATH.
>
> thoughts aloud:
>
> science could indeed be considered a game -- may be I should
> advise on such PATH-driven interpretation and ask upstream to place
> their binaries under /usr/games then which is in the PATH -- then
> we should all be compliant with our intertrepations of FHS
> damn... there is only 1 /usr/games so once again -- conflicts
> conflicts conflicts

Not sure what you're trying to suggest here? The FHS *is* clear on what
goes in /usr/games:
games Games and educational binaries (optional)

> not sure if of any point, since the list seems to be only full of
> SPAM I have posted my question to [1].
>
> [1]
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20111102222553.GL10325%40one russian.com&forum_name=freestandards-fhs-discuss

This is not the proper location for FHS discussion, [1] is.

[1] https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/fhs-discuss

thanks,
kk

--
Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK7FOSS)
http://www.kgoetz.id.au
No, I won't join your social networking group
 
Old 11-02-2011, 10:02 PM
Cyril Brulebois
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

Karl Goetz <karl@kgoetz.id.au> (03/11/2011):
> I don't have a link at the moment (because linuxfoundation
> bugzilla/bzr/etc is still MIA), but I'm pretty sure its been clarified
> forbidding subdirs in any of the (s)bin directories for FHS 3.0 (and
> the exceptions you cite have also been removed).
> If/when all the infrastructure comes back, you can find links to them
> at [1].
>
> [1]
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/fhs-discuss/2011-August/000334.html

In the meanwhile, posted by Jeff Licquia[2]:

“This draft removes quite a few historical artifacts, such as
/usr/X11R6 and subdirectories in /usr/bin, and adds many recent
developments, including /sys and /run.”

2. https://www.linux.com/news/software/linux-kernel/493031:feedback-requested-filesystem-hierarchy-standard-released

Which should clarify the situation.

Mraw,
KiBi.
 
Old 11-02-2011, 10:11 PM
Yaroslav Halchenko
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

On Thu, 03 Nov 2011, Karl Goetz wrote:
> Not sure what you're trying to suggest here? The FHS *is* clear on what
> goes in /usr/games:
> games Games and educational binaries (optional)

I wasn't really suggesting anything I guess... just objected suggested
PATH-driven interpretation of what goes under /usr/bin

> > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20111102222553.GL10325%40one russian.com&forum_name=freestandards-fhs-discuss
> This is not the proper location for FHS discussion, [1] is.
> [1] https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/fhs-discuss

ah -- thanks -- I just followed a link on
http://www.pathname.com/fhs/
will repost to fhs-discuss now

--
=------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic


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Old 11-02-2011, 10:15 PM
Yaroslav Halchenko
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

thanks Cyril -- that indeed clarifies it (finally)!

it is all clear now that users would need to invoke them from under
/usr/lib/

Cheers,

P.S. so no need for me to repost it to fhs-discuss now I guess

On Thu, 03 Nov 2011, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> In the meanwhile, posted by Jeff Licquia[2]:

> “This draft removes quite a few historical artifacts, such as
> /usr/X11R6 and subdirectories in /usr/bin, and adds many recent
> developments, including /sys and /run.”

> 2. https://www.linux.com/news/software/linux-kernel/493031:feedback-requested-filesystem-hierarchy-standard-released

> Which should clarify the situation.
--
=------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic


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Old 11-02-2011, 10:22 PM
Karl Goetz
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

On Wed, 2 Nov 2011 19:11:11 -0400
Yaroslav Halchenko <debian@onerussian.com> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2011, Karl Goetz wrote:
> > Not sure what you're trying to suggest here? The FHS *is* clear on
> > what goes in /usr/games:
> > games Games and educational binaries (optional)
>
> I wasn't really suggesting anything I guess... just objected suggested
> PATH-driven interpretation of what goes under /usr/bin

ok

> > > http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=20111102222553.GL10325%40one russian.com&forum_name=freestandards-fhs-discuss
> > This is not the proper location for FHS discussion, [1] is.
> > [1] https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/fhs-discuss
>
> ah -- thanks -- I just followed a link on
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/

Not sure who can fix that page, a few links need updating to the new
location. The page source mentions Daniel Quinlan, if you're interested
in following up perhaps try him.

> will repost to fhs-discuss now

For FHS 3.0 its already changed to No subdirectories in {,/usr}/(s)bin.
thanks,
kk

--
Karl Goetz, (Kamping_Kaiser / VK7FOSS)
http://www.kgoetz.id.au
No, I won't join your social networking group
 
Old 11-02-2011, 11:30 PM
Michael Biebl
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

Am 03.11.2011 00:15, schrieb Yaroslav Halchenko:
> it is all clear now that users would need to invoke them from under
> /usr/lib/

If at all, the binaries would need to be placed into
/usr/lib/<package>. But as Steve already said, if those binaries are
part of the interface and supposed to be called by the user, then they
belong on the PATH.


--
Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the
universe are pointed away from Earth?
 
Old 11-03-2011, 07:25 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

Le mercredi 02 novembre 2011 * 19:15 -0400, Yaroslav Halchenko a
écrit :
> thanks Cyril -- that indeed clarifies it (finally)!
>
> it is all clear now that users would need to invoke them from under
> /usr/lib/

No, they would need to invoke them using a wrapper in /usr/bin. Think of
“git foo” or “svn blah” as good examples to follow.

--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-


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Old 11-03-2011, 05:58 PM
Igor Pashev
 
Default directory under /usr/bin -- Ok or not?

03.11.2011 00:48, Roger Leigh пишет:

When considering the divide between "internal use" and "for users",
consider that if it's for users to invoke then it should simply be
in the default path. It's not typical to need to add special
directories to one's path, and it's certainly not encouraged or
recommended.


Isn't /usr/libexec for "internal use" exetutables?


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