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Old 08-20-2011, 06:45 PM
Mike Hommey
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 09:19:02PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 11/08/11 at 19:52 +0000, Philipp Kern wrote:
> > On 2011-08-11, Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> wrote:
> > >> Think of both user systems and the Debian buildds which will waste more
> > >> time - an especially bad problem on slower architectures.
> > > The gain is especially meaningful for slower architectures, as they tend to
> > > have less disk space and slower network links (arm tends to be used in
> > > phones). No extra memory is needed -- decompression is not done in parallel
> > > with memory-hungry stages of dpkg's work. The decompression, merely 2.5
> > > times slower than with gzip, is a tiny fraction of what dpkg takes.
> >
> > It takes a lot longer to compress on slower architectures (i.e. on the
> > buildds), though. You could've built a whole package in that time. (Resorting
> > to your style of argument.)
>
> Wouldn't it be better to get more buildds for those archs, then?
> That would be a totally appropriate use of Debian money...

Speaking of which. It would also totally be an appropriate use of Debian
money to get new porter boxes that fit the buildds. Most of the non x86
porter boxes are pathetically slow, which is even sadder when you know
the buildd boxes for the same architectures are an order of magnitude
faster (and I'm almost not exagerating).

Mike


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Old 08-21-2011, 04:59 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 08:45:18PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > Wouldn't it be better to get more buildds for those archs, then?
> > That would be a totally appropriate use of Debian money...
>
> Speaking of which. It would also totally be an appropriate use of Debian
> money to get new porter boxes that fit the buildds. Most of the non x86
> porter boxes are pathetically slow, which is even sadder when you know
> the buildd boxes for the same architectures are an order of magnitude
> faster (and I'm almost not exagerating).

I concur and I'll be happy to approve such usage of Debian money. FWIW,
what is needed to make this kind of things happen is not really money.
What is missing is rather a bit of coordination of people that: 1) keep
track of what hardware we need, 2) take the time to do a first check if
we have vendors interested in donating that hardware, 3) fallback to get
a quote of the needed hardware, 4) get back to the DPL saying "we need
that and it costs XXX, can we have it?".

That sort of hw coordination is what we need at present. Without it,
just saying "$foo would be a good use of Debian money" won't fly.

And while we are at it, DSA is well aware of the need of such a role and
I've on my TODO list to call for help for people interested on working
together with DSA on the above topics. I was planning to mention it in
the forthcoming bits from the DPL, but I guess that repeating it here
won't hurt...

Any taker?

Cheers.

PS Cc:-ing -admin that can for sure explain better than me what the hw
coordination role should be about
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 08-21-2011, 06:21 PM
Bastien ROUCARIES
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli <leader@debian.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 08:45:18PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
>> > Wouldn't it be better to get more buildds for those archs, then?
>> > That would be a totally appropriate use of Debian money...
>>
>> Speaking of which. It would also totally be an appropriate use of Debian
>> money to get new porter boxes that fit the buildds. Most of the non x86
>> porter boxes are pathetically slow, which is even sadder when you know
>> the buildd boxes for the same architectures are an order of magnitude
>> faster (and I'm almost not exagerating).
>
> I concur and I'll be happy to approve such usage of Debian money. FWIW,
> what is needed to make this kind of things happen is not really money.
> What is missing is rather a bit of coordination of people that: 1) keep
> track of what hardware we need,

Could this point tracked using a special package on the bts (or a tag)
? It will also help for finding printing device with hard to reproduce
bug.

Bug that depend of this need to by blocked by hardware bug.


2) take the time to do a first check if
we have vendors interested in donating that hardware,

Using (abusing) tag upstream on the bts ?

3) fallback to get
a quote of the needed hardware,

using tag fixed-upstream ?

4) get back to the DPL saying "we need
that and it costs XXX, can we have it?"

Using tag confirmed ?
>
> That sort of hw coordination is what we need at present. Without it,
> just saying "$foo would be a good use of Debian money" won't fly.
>
> And while we are at it, DSA is well aware of the need of such a role and
> I've on my TODO list to call for help for people interested on working
> together with DSA on the above topics. I was planning to mention it in
> the forthcoming bits from the DPL, but I guess that repeating it here
> won't hurt...
>
> Any taker?
>
> Cheers.
>
> PS Cc:-ing -admin that can for sure explain better than me what the hw
> * coordination role should be about
> --
> Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
> zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
> Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | *. *|. I've fans everywhere
> ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
>


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Old 08-22-2011, 07:18 AM
Martin Zobel-Helas
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

Hi,

On Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 20:45:18 +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 09:19:02PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > On 11/08/11 at 19:52 +0000, Philipp Kern wrote:
> > > On 2011-08-11, Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> wrote:
> > > >> Think of both user systems and the Debian buildds which will waste more
> > > >> time - an especially bad problem on slower architectures.
> > > > The gain is especially meaningful for slower architectures, as they tend to
> > > > have less disk space and slower network links (arm tends to be used in
> > > > phones). No extra memory is needed -- decompression is not done in parallel
> > > > with memory-hungry stages of dpkg's work. The decompression, merely 2.5
> > > > times slower than with gzip, is a tiny fraction of what dpkg takes.
> > >
> > > It takes a lot longer to compress on slower architectures (i.e. on the
> > > buildds), though. You could've built a whole package in that time. (Resorting
> > > to your style of argument.)
> >
> > Wouldn't it be better to get more buildds for those archs, then?
> > That would be a totally appropriate use of Debian money...

_Personaly_ i think, Debian has more than enough machines. Adding more
machines just to have packages build faster is not a proper solution.
Please keep in mind you need someone to admin those machines.

Also please keep in mind that most hardware for architectures like arm,
mips, mipsel we got are not 'end user hardware' but development boards
and thus have other specs than the end user hardware. The kernel team in
the past and in the present denied to build yet another kernel flavour
for those machines, and this way DSA needs to take care of having up to
date kernels for those machines. This is a no-option.

IF you want to have more hardware, find boards that are/will be
supported by the kernel team and ship them to existing hosting places.
Yet another hosting in someones basement is not an option for a project
machines.


Just my 2,

Martin
--
Martin Zobel-Helas <zobel@debian.org> | Debian System Administrator
Debian & GNU/Linux Developer | Debian Listmaster
GPG key http://go.debian.net/B11B627B |
GPG Fingerprint: 6B18 5642 8E41 EC89 3D5D BDBB 53B1 AC6D B11B 627B


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Old 08-22-2011, 08:51 AM
Alexander Reichle-Schmehl
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

Hi!

Am 21.08.2011 18:59, schrieb Stefano Zacchiroli:

[ more powerful hardware needed ]

> What is missing is rather a bit of coordination of people that:
[..]
> Any taker?

Well, according to [1] and [2], we have some hardware donations
coordinators, and at [3] we have a list of needed hardware.

I'm not involved in that area, but what you describe sounds actually
pretty much like what they do / could do. So it would be interesting to
know, why that approach currently doesn't work, and how that can be
improved.

1: http://www.debian.org/intro/organization
2: http://www.debian.org/donations#equipment_donations
3: http://www.debian.org/misc/hardware_wanted


Best regards,
Alexander


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Old 08-22-2011, 09:08 AM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:51:02AM +0200, Alexander Reichle-Schmehl wrote:
> > What is missing is rather a bit of coordination of people that:
> [..]
> > Any taker?
>
> Well, according to [1] and [2], we have some hardware donations
> coordinators, and at [3] we have a list of needed hardware.
>
> I'm not involved in that area, but what you describe sounds actually
> pretty much like what they do / could do. So it would be interesting to
> know, why that approach currently doesn't work, and how that can be
> improved.

I think that I've explained it in the "[..]" you have snipped, actually
. But let me briefly outline the difference among a "donation contact
point" (which is what we have now, even though the name is slightly
different) and an "hardware coordination team".

The former act as a contact point for external vendors that, without us
reaching out to them, wants to ask Debian "we have that, are you
interested?". According to some feedback I got from people who are
behind that alias, it seems to be pretty useless. The kind of mails it
gets is "I've an hold 486 dx with mouse and keyboard, do you need it?".

The hardware *coordination* team do actual coordination and tracking of
what we need — which tends to be rather specific hardware. Additionally,
the team should reach out to potential donors proactively, and fall back
to prepare buy orders via interaction with the DPL.

Again, I'm a bit outside of my territory here and I lack first-hand
experience. People from -admin and DSA can be more precise and helpful
than me.

Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 08-22-2011, 11:44 AM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

]] Mike Hommey

| Speaking of which. It would also totally be an appropriate use of Debian
| money to get new porter boxes that fit the buildds. Most of the non x86
| porter boxes are pathetically slow, which is even sadder when you know
| the buildd boxes for the same architectures are an order of magnitude
| faster (and I'm almost not exagerating).

The ones you mentioned on IRC were sparc and powerpc. PowerPC is
getting an extra debian.net porterbox as we speak, this one being a quad
2.5GHz G5 with 6G memory and 500G disk. (It'll run a buildbot for
Varnish so it won't be a DSA machine.)

Thanks a lot to Jan Ingvoldstad and Domainnameshop.com for giving me
the machine so I can make it available as a porter box.

Cheers,
--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 08-22-2011, 12:43 PM
David Bremner
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:44:08 +0200, Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote:

> The ones you mentioned on IRC were sparc and powerpc. PowerPC is
> getting an extra debian.net porterbox as we speak, this one being a quad
> 2.5GHz G5 with 6G memory and 500G disk. (It'll run a buildbot for
> Varnish so it won't be a DSA machine.)

Thanks to everyone involved with this. Lack of a G5 porterbox has been a
thorn in my side for about a year now. Just this morning I noticed
another powerpc build failure that I am pretty sure won't be
reproducible on the G4 porter box.

Thanks again,

David


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Old 08-22-2011, 07:20 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

]] Tollef Fog Heen

| The ones you mentioned on IRC were sparc and powerpc. PowerPC is
| getting an extra debian.net porterbox as we speak, this one being a quad
| 2.5GHz G5 with 6G memory and 500G disk. (It'll run a buildbot for
| Varnish so it won't be a DSA machine.)

The machine is now live and accessible as
shooreinet.err.no. https://db.debian.org/machines.cgi?host=shooreinet
has SSH keys and such.

DSA and the PPC porter group has sudo on the host (they need to set an
explicit sudo password since it's not a DSA machine and so doesn't get
the sudo password exported to *.).

It also has a sid chroot available using schroot.

Enjoy,
--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 08-24-2011, 01:50 AM
Don Armstrong
 
Default Spending Debian money for porter boxes

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011, Bastien ROUCARIES wrote:
> > I concur and I'll be happy to approve such usage of Debian money.
> > FWIW, what is needed to make this kind of things happen is not
> > really money. What is missing is rather a bit of coordination of
> > people that: 1) keep track of what hardware we need,
>
> Could this point tracked using a special package on the bts (or a
> tag) ? It will also help for finding printing device with hard to
> reproduce bug.

If whoever is willing to track this wants to make use of the BTS for
it, I have no objections, and will create such a pseudopackage
following their directions.


Don Armstrong

--
I don't care how poor and inefficient a little country is; they like
to run their own business. I know men that would make my wife a
better husband than I am; but, darn it, I'm not going to give her to
'em.
-- The Best of Will Rogers

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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