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Old 08-07-2011, 03:31 PM
Neil Williams
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

Emdebian has long described itself as an "official sub project of
Debian" but this status has never actually been granted by Debian. The
discrepancy recently led to discussions with the Debian Project Leader
and on the debian-embedded mailing list [0] about integrating Emdebian
into Debian so that the status of Emdebian can be decided properly.

It rapidly became clear that Emdebian could integrate the Emdebian Grip
flavour more closely with Debian and that such integration was
desirable both within Emdebian and within Debian.

At DebConf11 [1], discussions took place with representatives of the ftp
team, wanna-build team and the release team around the mechanisms by
which Emdebian Grip [2] could be integrated directly into the main
Debian archive and Debian release process.

This is the technical side of the thread I started about Emdebian
Policy. http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/08/msg00153.html

The discussions have resulted in quite a few points which I've now put
on the wiki:

http://wiki.debian.org/EmdebianIntegration

Please refer to the wiki before raising possible technical problems.

The summary is that Emdebian has a binary compatible distribution which
has been released in sync with Debian since Debian 5.0 (Lenny), called
Emdebian Grip. The binary compatibility and suitability for embedded
devices has led to this flavour becoming very popular with embedded
users - commercial and hobbyist. Grip supports amd64, i386, armel, mips,
mipsel & powerpc. Unofficial ports are also available for armhf, sh4
and powerpcspe. Grip consists of ~3,000 packages, all of which are
binary compatible with the equivalent Debian package but ~40% smaller,
on average. Processing of packages for Grip is entirely
architecture-agnostic and 98% automated. This proposal would make it
easier to ensure Grip is in sync with Debian by allowing the ftp team
and release team to use existing tools to manage both sets of packages
at the same time.

Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian would involve parallel suites
(unstable-grip, testing-grip, stable-grip, stable-proposed-updates-grip
etc.) with a restricted package set. (Grip is currently at ~3,000
binary packages out of ~30,000 in Debian.) Emdebian would sort out a
buildd-type process which receives the list of binary packages passing
through the archive, filters the ones which are interesting and then
uploads the converted package to the parallel suite.

There have not been nor will there be source changes to packages, source
packages are not interesting to the Emdebian Grip process other than for
compliance. No re-compilation takes place. dpkg-buildpackage is not
called, debian/rules is ignored. All processing is done by unpacking
the .deb, removing/compressing files and repacking it with a temporary
changelog entry.

To distinguish the converted packages and the Debian originals,
Emdebian Grip packages already use the em1 suffix and this would be
retained. reportbug already has support for directing bugs to
buildd.emdebian.org if this version suffix is found. (Strict
dependencies are managed during the "grip" process.)

Requests for adding more packages would go through the
buildd.emdebian.org pseudo-package on the BTS but additions are far
from automatic. One of the principle gains of Emdebian Grip is that the
Packages.gz file is small. Not only is this helpful in download time,
it also dramatically reduces the amount of data apt-cache needs to
load, write and process on-device. Tools already exist in Debian to add
more packages to a base Emdebian Grip package set on a user-specific
basis using the 'apt-grip' script in the emdebian-grip package.

To make the integration process work, Emdebian has agreed to drop the
dev, debug, java and doc components from Grip unstable and Wheezy
(which are all just sub-divisions of 'main') in order to make this
process work - all packages will revert to the "main" component and
Emdebian would gain support for contrib and non-free (although no
packages currently exist for those components in Emdebian Grip).

packages.debian.org will be able to list the new suites and the
versions available within those suites as well as a comparison of the
file list and package sizes. In a similar manner to udebs and the
experimental suite, a suitable warning message can be added to the page.

packages.qa.debian.org could list the parallel suites too, in a similar
manner to the Ubuntu listings - although no patches would ever exist
for Grip.

I should also be clear that Emdebian has two main flavours (Grip and
Crush) and a third "meta-flavour" called Baked. These changes *only*
affect the binary-compatible Grip flavour. Just describing these
packages as "Emdebian" may lead to confusion in bug reports. This is
why the proposed suite names include "grip" rather than "emdebian".

Lots more information on Emdebian on the http://www.emdebian.org
website and the Embedded_Debian parts of the Debian wiki.

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-embedded/2011/04/msg00013.html
[1] http://debconf11.debconf.org/
[2] http://www.emdebian.org/grip/

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 08-08-2011, 03:43 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

]] Neil Williams

| The discussions have resulted in quite a few points which I've now put
| on the wiki:
|
| http://wiki.debian.org/EmdebianIntegration
|
| Please refer to the wiki before raising possible technical problems.

It seems like nobody from DSA or the security team has been involved in
this process so far?

also, the point:

«Documentation will be required for maintainers who may not currently
know that their package has already been released as part of Emdebian
Grip 1.0 (Lenny) and Emdebian Grip 2.0 (Squeeze). This documentation
will need to cover the changes made within the package and how to
deal with bug reports which refer to the Emdebian Grip version.»

I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
problem.

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 08-08-2011, 03:57 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

Tollef Fog Heen writes ("Re: Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian"):
> «Documentation will be required for maintainers who may not currently
> know that their package has already been released as part of Emdebian
> Grip 1.0 (Lenny) and Emdebian Grip 2.0 (Squeeze). This documentation
> will need to cover the changes made within the package and how to
> deal with bug reports which refer to the Emdebian Grip version.»
>
> I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
> of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
> problem.

Is it really a significant extra burden ?

Ian.


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Old 08-08-2011, 04:03 PM
Iustin Pop
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

On Mon, Aug 08, 2011 at 05:43:55PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> ]] Neil Williams
>
> | The discussions have resulted in quite a few points which I've now put
> | on the wiki:
> |
> | http://wiki.debian.org/EmdebianIntegration
> |
> | Please refer to the wiki before raising possible technical problems.
>
> It seems like nobody from DSA or the security team has been involved in
> this process so far?
>
> also, the point:
>
> «Documentation will be required for maintainers who may not currently
> know that their package has already been released as part of Emdebian
> Grip 1.0 (Lenny) and Emdebian Grip 2.0 (Squeeze). This documentation
> will need to cover the changes made within the package and how to
> deal with bug reports which refer to the Emdebian Grip version.»
>
> I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
> of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
> problem.

While your point is of good nature, why do you think this would increase
the workload “massively”?

Also, “and how to deal with bug reportsÂ*which refer to the Emdebian
version” might simply be (or not) how to forward bugs to the right team.

regards,
iustin
 
Old 08-08-2011, 05:12 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

]] Iustin Pop

| > I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
| > of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
| > problem.
|
| While your point is of good nature, why do you think this would
| increase the workload “massively”?

It approximately doubles the amount of «architectures».

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 08-08-2011, 06:49 PM
Neil Williams
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:43:55 +0200
Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote:

> ]] Neil Williams
>
> | The discussions have resulted in quite a few points which I've now put
> | on the wiki:
> |
> | http://wiki.debian.org/EmdebianIntegration
> |
> | Please refer to the wiki before raising possible technical problems.
>
> It seems like nobody from DSA or the security team has been involved in
> this process so far?

It's hard to see how binary-compatible versions of Debian packages
would have different security issues to the binary-compatible ones in
another suite.

It wasn't possible to contact every team about this proposal at
DebConf11, that's what I want to achieve in this thread.

> also, the point:
>
> «Documentation will be required for maintainers who may not currently
> know that their package has already been released as part of Emdebian
> Grip 1.0 (Lenny) and Emdebian Grip 2.0 (Squeeze). This documentation
> will need to cover the changes made within the package and how to
> deal with bug reports which refer to the Emdebian Grip version.»
>
> I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
> of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
> problem.

The documentation will cover what reportbug should already be doing,
namely redirecting bugs which are reported against a package using a
version ending in em1 to buildd.emdebian.org. So far, there are very
few bugs related to Grip, despite it's widespread usage.

Bugs in Emdebian versions are not going to increase the workload of
maintainers outside the Emdebian team and if some do get assigned to
the Debian package, those can just be re-assigned to
buildd.emdebian.org - at least until someone reproduces the problem in
Debian and reports "found" appropriately.

It isn't a massive increase. Only 10% of packages will be involved and
only on 6 architectures. However, the architectures remain the same -
this is about new suites, not architectures.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 08-08-2011, 06:51 PM
Neil Williams
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:12:18 +0200
Tollef Fog Heen <tfheen@err.no> wrote:

> ]] Iustin Pop
>
> | > I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
> | > of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
> | > problem.
> |
> | While your point is of good nature, why do you think this would
> | increase the workload “massively”?
>
> It approximately doubles the amount of «architectures».

No new architectures are involved. This is about a parallel set of
suites, not architectures. Emdebian supports less architectures than
Debian and only 10% of the packages in Debian.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 08-08-2011, 08:07 PM
Antonio Terceiro
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

Tollef Fog Heen escreveu isso aĂ*:
> ]] Iustin Pop
>
> | > I don't really think it's reasonable to suddenly increase the workload
> | > of maintainers massively by making tracking bugs in emdebian their
> | > problem.
> |
> | While your point is of good nature, why do you think this would
> | increase the workload “massively”?
>
> It approximately doubles the amount of «architectures».

The wiki page explicitly mentions that all grip packages are binary
compatible with their vanilla Debian counterparts, and that the Emdebian
team has not noticed a single package whose behaviour was changed by the
changes made to the binary packages for grip. So for me it does not seem
to add the same burden as adding new actual architectures would.

--
Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@softwarelivre.org>
http://softwarelivre.org/terceiro
 
Old 08-18-2011, 03:34 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Integrating Emdebian Grip into Debian

On Sun, Aug 07, 2011 at 04:31:47PM +0100, Neil Williams wrote:
> Emdebian has long described itself as an "official sub project of
> Debian" but this status has never actually been granted by Debian. The
> discrepancy recently led to discussions with the Debian Project Leader
> and on the debian-embedded mailing list [0] about integrating Emdebian
> into Debian so that the status of Emdebian can be decided properly.

Thanks for bringing this up here, Neil (and sorry for the delay).

FWIW, on this matter I'll be happy to be just a secretary of the
consensus of Debian people in blessing Emdebian as the official Debian
sub-project for using Debian on embedded devices. In our previous
conversations on this subject, I've simply pointed out that the claim of
"official sub project of Debian" is not, at present, warranted, and that
we should fix that one way or another.

I'm happy to see that discussions with the relevant teams (policy,
release team, ftpmaster, etc.) for integrating Emdebian more closely
into Debian infrastructure have been going on at DebConf11 and that are
continuing now.

I'll try to keep an eye on the various points you've collected on the
wiki page, but feel free to ping me when significant integration
milestones will be reached.

Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 

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