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Old 07-26-2011, 12:02 PM
Daniel Baumann
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

On 07/26/2011 12:27 AM, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote:
> I believe it's high time we start to providing Debian in form of official
> virtualisation images.

we have worked on that with debian-live (both producing live and
'non-live' images; the only difference is that live-* is not installed
in the rootfs), and provide soon vbox (and if interest, any other image
type) for this.

you might want to hold on for after debconf.

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Old 07-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

Karl Goetz <karl@kgoetz.id.au> schrieb:

>> I think it's sufficient for starters to provide images for stable
>> (they can be updated for every few point updates if needed).
>>=20
>> What virtualisation solutions should be supported?
>
>> - Vmware has a significant installed base and is relevant, although
>> proprietary
>> - Microsoft Virtual PC is likely also needed
>> - Citrix XenServer?
>
> Would this require the Debian project to go out and buy various bits of
> proprietary software to build the images with?

No money will need to be spend. There will surely be people, who
have access to such systems at work. At least VMware also offers
free-as-in-beer variants like vmware server or ESXi. (IIRC)

I don't see a problem with offering Debian in proprietary virt formats,
it's essentially comparable to the FSF offering builds for of the GNU
userland for proprietary Unixes; to provide people an initial stepstone
to get out of their proprietary mess.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Old 07-26-2011, 04:58 PM
Steffen Möller
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

On 07/26/2011 09:53 AM, Olivier Bonvalet wrote:
> Le 26/07/2011 09:28, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit :
>> On 26/07/11 at 00:27 +0200, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I believe it's high time we start to providing Debian in form of
>>> official
>>> virtualisation images. In contrast to the ISOs currently provided it
>>> allows a quicker evaluation/testing of Debian (and can also be very
>>> useful for testing (e.g. someone wrote on debian-release that he
>>> doesn't have
>>> access to oldstable/stable systems, with prepared virtualisation
>>> images that would no longer be an issue). For many setups this could
>>> even
>>> replace the installer since software selection and hostname can easily
>>> be tweaked post-install.
>>>
>>> I think it's sufficient for starters to provide images for stable
>>> (they can be updated for every few point updates if needed).
>>>
>>> What virtualisation solutions should be supported?
>>> - Virtual Box seems like a natural candidate since it's free and
>>> included since Squeeze.
>>> - Vmware has a significant installed base and is relevant, although
>>> proprietary
>>> - Microsoft Virtual PC is likely also needed
>>> - Qemu
>>> - Citrix XenServer?
>>
>> - images for cloud infrastructures (AMI -- Amazon Machine Image)
>>
> +1
>
> I would love to have an official Debian Image for Amazon and other
> cloud infrastructures.
Please allow to bring
http://alestic.com/
with a series of fine images to your awareness. Those folks are not
beaten too
easily, and should rather be joined in some way.

The cloudbiolinux.org community is also preparing Debian-based images.
Everyone
out there in the cloud not using Azure likes Debian and/or its
derivatives. Rather than
having their effort duplicated, I would aim at embracing them and find a
niche for the
with or next to us.

That all said - we should be (and are) experimenting with those technologies
and come up with bits that those downstreamers might not have yet
thought of.
There is for instance Rudy at the very moment exploiting cross-architecture
virtualisation for the cloud with Eucalyptus as his Google Summer of
Code project.

Steffen




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Old 07-26-2011, 05:26 PM
Ivan Shmakov
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

>>>>> Moritz Mühlenhoff <jmm@inutil.org> writes:

> Hi, I believe it's high time we start to providing Debian in form of
> official virtualisation images. In contrast to the ISOs currently
> provided it allows a quicker evaluation/testing of Debian (and can
> also be very useful for testing (e. g. someone wrote on
> debian-release that he doesn't have access to oldstable/stable
> systems, with prepared virtualisation images that would no longer be
> an issue).

Most of the time, I'd prefer to use chroot'ed environments for
getting access to other Linux-based systems (with comparable
kernel versions.)

> For many setups this could even replace the installer since software
> selection and hostname can easily be tweaked post-install.

While I can't readily advocate for one approach or the other,
there certainly is an alternative.

Namely, example preseed files for common in-VM installation
scenarios may be provided (within a Debian package, in
particular.) Also, it could be made easy and straightforward to
select a preseed file external to the image itself from the
bootloader's menu.

Given a ready to use preseed file, installing Debian is a
matter of minutes (operator's time.)

Also, this way, the issue of authenticity checking is already
solved, and there's no need to waste any disk space to host
extra image files.

With Qemu (KVM), the process may be further simplified by
providing a tarball with the respective kernel and initramfs
images, and an (example) script to start the installer, in
addition to the preseed file. Since Qemu contains its own
kernel bootloader, which can be configured from the command
line, the process could be made almost fully-automated.

The other virtualization solutions may demand a configuration
file of a sort. The examples, templates, or generators of such
files may also be provided.

The only configuration option that I expect to often require
operator's attention would be the HTTP proxy URI.

[…]

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Old 07-26-2011, 07:02 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

Michael Tokarev <mjt@tls.msk.ru> schrieb:

>>> What virtualisation solutions should be supported?
>>> - Virtual Box seems like a natural candidate since it's free and
>>> included since Squeeze.
>>> - Vmware has a significant installed base and is relevant, although
>>> proprietary
>>> - Microsoft Virtual PC is likely also needed
>>> - Qemu
>>> - Citrix XenServer?
>>
>> You don't mention KVM explicitly (it's almost identical to Qemu,
>> but fast), or Xen. Anyway, qemu-img can convert a raw disk image
>> into many other formats. So you generate one raw image, and then
>> convert it to any other formats using qemu-img.
>
> There is, actually, practically no need to provide different
> images, just one should be sufficient.
>
> The question is: how well all the listed virtualization solutions
> can work with raw images?

Ok, we could probably simply prepare an image in raw format and
ask people to test with various virtualisation solutions.

> If they can do that, it's the best approach to take: create _one_
> single image (of each distribution or point release, whatever) as
> a raw image, and include all software (drivers and agents) to work
> as a guest for any of the mentioned solutions.

The support drivers for Xen and virtio are mainlined and present
in the Squeeze kernel. At least the Vmware network driver also is
(vmxnet3).

The hv driver for Microsoft Virtual PC is only present in staging
not enabled in the Debian kernel.

> The only problem is that raw images may be large(ish). For that,
> create as small as possible file, to fit stuff almost exactly,
> and recommend resizing it. Maybe...

Having the images compressed with ZIP and bzip2 should probably
be equivalent?

Cheers,
Moritz







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Old 07-26-2011, 07:07 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> schrieb:
> --=-=-=
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> OoO En cette matin=C3=A9e ensoleill=C3=A9e du mardi 26 juillet 2011, vers=
> 09:28,
> Lucas Nussbaum <lucas@lucas-nussbaum.net> disait=C2=A0:
>
>>> What virtualisation solutions should be supported?
>>> - Virtual Box seems like a natural candidate since it's free and
>>> included since Squeeze.
>>> - Vmware has a significant installed base and is relevant, although
>>> proprietary
>>> - Microsoft Virtual PC is likely also needed
>>> - Qemu
>>> - Citrix XenServer?
>
>> - images for cloud infrastructures (AMI -- Amazon Machine Image)
>
> I was about to ask the same. Those images seem very popular for
> Ubuntu. Maybe we are missing something by not providing them. I remember
> that those images can be used with Eucalyptus as well (no need to use
> Amazon).

The process is detailed here:
http://docs.amazonwebservices.com/AWSEC2/2007-08-29/GettingStartedGuide/creating-an-image.html

I have no experience with Amazon EC2. It says "All AMIs are loaded from Amazon S3 storage.".
Does this mean Debian would need to rent Amazon storage space, which would be
made accessible to the world by granting access rights or similarly?

Cheers,
Moritz


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Old 07-26-2011, 07:10 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

Jon Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> schrieb:
> Perhaps a Debian web service could spit out custom VM definitions alongside the
> image file in a chosen disk format for users on-demand?
>
> For starters, compressed RAW disk format is perhaps the most useful disk image
> format (can be imported into virtually anything)

I guess all virtualisation solutions could share a common RAW image, for which
different virtual machine definitions are created by volunteers running one of
the respective virt solutions.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Old 07-26-2011, 07:12 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

Stefano Zacchiroli <leader@debian.org> schrieb:

> Additionally, I think we should also consider getting contacts with
> "cloud providers" (e.g. Amazon, as mentioned in this thread) and have
> them offer Debian images provided by us. Some of those provider already
> offer, possibly via third parties, Debian virtualization images. It
> would be much better if they can offer the "official" ones provided by
> us. For this we need contacts though, possibly of people who are
> Debian/FOSS friendly within the companies. Of course we should strive
> for not singling out any single company, hence the way it could work is
> to have a page listing providers offering official Debian virtualisation
> images + offering a contact point that providers could mail to get
> listed. In that respect, it could work very much like

I know next to nothing about cloud computing.

Which cloud providers are relevant beside Amazon?

Cheers,
Moritz


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Old 07-26-2011, 07:15 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

debian <debian@fpsoft.net> schrieb:
> For now I would recommend against pre-configured Citrix XenServer
> releases. I am a Citrix CCNA and I would not recommend that for this
> very reason. Debian is best set up in Citrix Xenserver from scratch.

Is there a technical reason or is this personal preference?

The idea of offering virtualised images is have immediate access to
the system after download and not go go through an installer.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Old 07-26-2011, 07:17 PM
Moritz Mühlenhoff
 
Default Providing official virtualisation images of Debian

Lars Wirzenius <liw@liw.fi> schrieb:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 12:27:09AM +0200, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote:
>> What virtualisation solutions should be supported?
>> - Virtual Box seems like a natural candidate since it's free and
>> included since Squeeze.
>> - Vmware has a significant installed base and is relevant, although
>> proprietary
>> - Microsoft Virtual PC is likely also needed
>> - Qemu
>> - Citrix XenServer?
>
> You don't mention KVM explicitly (it's almost identical to Qemu,
> but fast), or Xen. Anyway, qemu-img can convert a raw disk image
> into many other formats. So you generate one raw image, and then
> convert it to any other formats using qemu-img.
>
>> How should the images be generated?
>
> vmdebootstrap --image=debian-squeeze.img --size=4G
> --mirror=http://cdn.debian.net/debian --distribution=squeeze
> --enable-dhcp --root-password=password1 --user=tomjon/password
> --hostname=squeezebox --package=gnome
>
> That should get you started. Vary the packages as you wish, and
> see also the --customize option for futher tweaking.

That sounds neat. I'll give it a try later on.

Cheers,
Moritz


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