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Old 06-21-2011, 03:26 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

I've been invited to deliver a speech at the next GNU Hackers Meeting,
which will take place in Paris (France) from August 25th to August
28th. The people who invited me are interested in the workflow of
patches from final users to upstreams, possibly passing through
derivatives, that I've presented in various talks before.

I'll be glad to talk about that. But I would also like to take the
chance to present how we feel about GNU as an upstream, in case we have
anything more to say about GNU than what we have to say about other
upstreams (see for example initiatives like [1,2,3]).

In short: if you are maintaining a GNU package [4] in Debian, I'd like
to hear from you. Please mail me comments about your relationship with
GNU as an upstream, whether it is good or bad, and whether you have
specific desiderata that are general enough to be mentioned to GNU as a
project rather than to individual GNU maintainers.

I'll ask the GNU hackers to do the same from the converse point of view
(i.e. do they have issues in dealing with Debian as a downstream?) and
share the results here. I'm setting Mail-Followup-To to <leader@d.o> to
collect feedback, but by all means feel free to follow-up to -project
for comments of general interest.

Cheers.

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/UpstreamGuide
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-upstream/
(shameless plug: this one is in need of a few ideas about how to
better advertise itself, I'm sure people on the list would welcome
contributions on that front)
[3] http://updo.debian.net/
[4] http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html#allgnupkgs
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 06-21-2011, 04:29 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

Stefano Zacchiroli writes ("relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback"):
> In short: if you are maintaining a GNU package [4] in Debian, I'd like
> to hear from you. Please mail me comments about your relationship with
> GNU as an upstream, whether it is good or bad, and whether you have
> specific desiderata that are general enough to be mentioned to GNU as a
> project rather than to individual GNU maintainers.

I think overall the biggest problem we face as a downstream of GNU is
the use of the GFDL with invariant sections and/or cover texts. It's
not clear whether ordinary footsoldier hackers can do much about this,
which is mostly due to a policy emanating from the GNU project
management - but they can at least complain, and only comply when
forced.

Ian.
(also a GNU maintainer)


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Old 06-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Andreas Metzler
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

In gmane.linux.debian.devel.general Stefano Zacchiroli <leader@debian.org> wrote:
[...]
> In short: if you are maintaining a GNU package [4] in Debian, I'd like
> to hear from you. Please mail me comments about your relationship with
> GNU as an upstream, whether it is good or bad, and whether you have
> specific desiderata that are general enough to be mentioned to GNU as a
> project rather than to individual GNU maintainers.

> [4] http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html#allgnupkgs
[...]

Hello,

the only aspect I can think of where there is a real difference to
other upstreams is related to the licensing. Besides the obvious (e.g.
the push for using the latest GPL/GFDL), the fact that they care about
licensing helps.

Maintaining GNU software is usually less work, since they care about
documenting copyright/license. With other software keeping
debian/copyright up to date can be quite time-consuming.

cu andreas
--
`What a good friend you are to him, Dr. Maturin. His other friends are
so grateful to you.'
`I sew his ears on from time to time, sure'


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Old 06-25-2011, 07:46 AM
Paul Wise
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:26 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> I've been invited to deliver a speech at the next GNU Hackers Meeting,
> which will take place in Paris (France) from August 25th to August
> 28th. The people who invited me are interested in the workflow of
> patches from final users to upstreams, possibly passing through
> derivatives, that I've presented in various talks before.
>
> I'll be glad to talk about that. But I would also like to take the
> chance to present how we feel about GNU as an upstream, in case we have
> anything more to say about GNU than what we have to say about other
> upstreams (see for example initiatives like [1,2,3]).

I'd echo the GFDL stuff other folks mentioned.

On the derivatives side of things we have a good relationship with
gNewSense folks, Karl Goetz (and probably others I didn't notice) are
involved in Debian.

--
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Old 06-28-2011, 12:54 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

Le mardi 21 juin 2011 * 17:26 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli a écrit :
> I'll be glad to talk about that. But I would also like to take the
> chance to present how we feel about GNU as an upstream, in case we have
> anything more to say about GNU than what we have to say about other
> upstreams (see for example initiatives like [1,2,3]).

I’m not a GNU package maintainer (unless you still consider GNOME a GNU
project), so I’m not saying anything about GNU as upstream developers,
but if you want to discuss frankly our issues with them, I hope you can
talk about RMS and the handful of holier-than-thou followers who always
find something that is “not free enough”.
There’s the topic of non-free firmwares of course (which suddenly become
free when they are shipped as EPROMs), and there’s the insanity that is
said every other day about Mono and anything loosely related to
Microsoft.

These people still represent the voice of the community in the minds of
journalists. They should consider it a great responsibility on their
shoulders, and I think they are abusing it; instead of promoting the
actual voice of the community, they are scaring people away by extremist
views based on incorrect claims.

I’d also join the crowd on the topic of non-free documentation which is
still extremely cumbersome for us, and forces people to add non-free APT
lines to install documentation for their free software.

Cheers,
--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-
 
Old 06-30-2011, 06:42 AM
Miles Bader
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> writes:
> I’m not a GNU package maintainer (unless you still consider GNOME a GNU
> project), so I’m not saying anything about GNU as upstream developers,
> but if you want to discuss frankly our issues with them, I hope you can
> talk about RMS and the handful of holier-than-thou followers who ...

... and so the rants begin...

-Miles

--
((lambda (x) (list x x)) (lambda (x) (list x x)))


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Old 07-10-2011, 05:01 PM
Marc Haber
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:54:36 +0200, Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>
wrote:
>I’d also join the crowd on the topic of non-free documentation which is
>still extremely cumbersome for us, and forces people to add non-free APT
>lines to install documentation for their free software.

Non-free has never been as omnipresent as today, probably because we
need it for our network cards to work.

Greetings
Marc
--
-------------------------------------- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -----
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834


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Old 08-24-2011, 03:08 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default relationships with GNU as an upstream - call for feedback

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 05:26:03PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I've been invited to deliver a speech at the next GNU Hackers Meeting,
> which will take place in Paris (France) from August 25th to August
> 28th. The people who invited me are interested in the workflow of
> patches from final users to upstreams, possibly passing through
> derivatives, that I've presented in various talks before.
>
> I'll be glad to talk about that. But I would also like to take the
> chance to present how we feel about GNU as an upstream, in case we have
> anything more to say about GNU than what we have to say about other
> upstreams (see for example initiatives like [1,2,3]).
>
> In short: if you are maintaining a GNU package [4] in Debian, I'd like
> to hear from you. Please mail me comments about your relationship with
> GNU as an upstream, whether it is good or bad, and whether you have
> specific desiderata that are general enough to be mentioned to GNU as a
> project rather than to individual GNU maintainers.

Last call for feedback about GNU as a Debian upstream: the talk is on
Friday. I've already received a good deal of feedback (about 15 mails)
and I'm in the process of summarizing what I've got. Given feedback is
never enough , you still have a few hours to let me know more. Of
course I'll report about the talk once it's done.

As I haven't yet done that with individual maintainers, I'd like to
hereby thank everyone who have followed-up providing some feedback:
thanks!

Cheers.

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/UpstreamGuide
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-upstream/
[3] http://updo.debian.net/
[4] http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html#allgnupkgs
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 

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