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Old 05-06-2011, 09:14 PM
Lucas Nussbaum
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

Hi,

In <http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2011/03/msg00016.html>,
the release team writes:

> 0-day NMU policy
> ----------------
> For some time now, we have had a perpetual 0-day NMU policy, and some
> discussion [LDO:0day] was had a while ago. We feel that this has worked
> well for the past five years, and so will be submitting a bug against
> dev-ref to make this official.
>
> For avoidance of doubt, this means that RC bugs that are older than one
> week that haven't had maintainer activity on it for a week can be
> uploaded to DELAYED/0-day. This means that patches must still make their
> way to the BTS, and the usual workflow must still follow. Also, to quote
> Adeodato Sim:
> [...]

The developers reference[1] currently contains:
> Unless you have an excellent reason not to do so, you must then give some time
> to the maintainer to react (for example, by uploading to the DELAYED queue).
> Here are some recommended values to use for delays:
>
> - Upload fixing only release-critical bugs older than 7 days: 2 days
>
> - Upload fixing only release-critical and important bugs: 5 days
>
> - Other NMUs: 10 days
>
> Those delays are only examples. In some cases, such as uploads fixing security
> issues, or fixes for trivial bugs that blocking a transition, it is desirable
> that the fixed package reaches unstable sooner.
>
> Sometimes, release managers decide to allow NMUs with shorter delays for a
> subset of bugs (e.g release-critical bugs older than 7 days). Also, some
> maintainers list themselves in the Low Threshold NMU list, and accept that NMUs
> are uploaded without delay. But even in those cases, it's still a good idea to
> give the maintainer a few days to react before you upload, especially if the
> patch wasn't available in the BTS before, or if you know that the maintainer is
> generally active.

[1] http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.en.html#nmu

A patch was proposed (#625449) to implement in dvelopers-reference the
"DELAYED/0 for upload fixing only release-critical bugs older than 7 days,
without maintainer activity for 7 days" policy.


I don't think that this policy is a good idea. But, since I was one of the
drivers of the DEP that resulted in the current NMU policy
(http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep1.html), I'm a bit biased, and I thought I would
bring this proposed change to the attention of -devel@, so that we can get more
feedback.

Reasons for which I am against the change:
- In addition to giving some time to the maintainer to react, the 2-days delay
also gives a chance to debian-bugs-rc@ readers to review the diff.

- The dev-ref documents the "default" choice. While there are cases where I
agree that uploading the fixed package ASAP is necessary, in most cases, we
can probably survive two more days with the bug, if we already survived more
than 7 days.

- Doing an NMU without trying to contact the maintainer beforehand could be
considered an aggressive behaviour, or a way to "punish" the maintainer for
not addressing bugs as fast as one would like. We are trying hard to fight
the feeling that NMUs are an aggression, this could be counter-productive.

- I don't think that it documents the current practice. Looking at the archives
of debian-bugs-rc@ in 2010, there are 390 mentions of "DELAYED/2", vs 711
mentions of "DELAYED", so uploading to DELAYED/2 looks quite popular.

- Developers could be tempted to "ping" their RC bug reports every 7 days to
ensure that someone would not NMU their packages without prior notices. With
1815 open RC bugs, this could add some noise

Lucas


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Old 05-06-2011, 10:38 PM
Roberto C. Snchez
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 11:14:55PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
>
> - Doing an NMU without trying to contact the maintainer beforehand could be
> considered an aggressive behaviour, or a way to "punish" the maintainer for
> not addressing bugs as fast as one would like. We are trying hard to fight
> the feeling that NMUs are an aggression, this could be counter-productive.
>
So, my experience with #624819 was basically this. The bug was
reported, followed by an NMU upload about 45 minutes after the bug was
initially reported. Please don't misunderstand. I appreciate that the
submitter was proactive. However, emailing the patch first and giving
me a few days would have been nice. Since the NMUer made changes
directly to the source files, I have to back out the patch and convert
it over to quilt (I use quilt on all my packages). So, his helpfulness
actually created more work.

Another thing to note is that while the NMU was uploaded to DELAYED/2,
the upload was actually ACCEPTed about 24 hours after the upload.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
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http://www.connexer.com
 
Old 05-06-2011, 10:56 PM
"Adam D. Barratt"
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

On Fri, 2011-05-06 at 18:38 -0400, Roberto C. Snchez wrote:
> On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 11:14:55PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> >
> > - Doing an NMU without trying to contact the maintainer beforehand could be
> > considered an aggressive behaviour, or a way to "punish" the maintainer for
> > not addressing bugs as fast as one would like. We are trying hard to fight
> > the feeling that NMUs are an aggression, this could be counter-productive.
> >
> So, my experience with #624819 was basically this. The bug was
> reported, followed by an NMU upload about 45 minutes after the bug was
> initially reported.

For the avoidance of any doubt, that's not what's being suggested here
and wouldn't be covered under the proposed patch ("older than 7 days,
without maintainer activity for 7 days").

Regards,

Adam


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Old 05-07-2011, 07:12 AM
Raphael Hertzog
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

On Fri, 06 May 2011, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> A patch was proposed (#625449) to implement in dvelopers-reference the
> "DELAYED/0 for upload fixing only release-critical bugs older than 7 days,
> without maintainer activity for 7 days" policy.
>
> I don't think that this policy is a good idea. But, since I was one of the
> drivers of the DEP that resulted in the current NMU policy
> (http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep1.html), I'm a bit biased, and I thought I would
> bring this proposed change to the attention of -devel@, so that we can get more
> feedback.

I wonder how many people made use of that 0-day NMU rule. I have always
interpreted those "rules" as “go ahead with NMUs, if the maintainer is a
jerk and complain, we'll be on your side”.

In other words, I think that the release team wants to encourage NMU to
fix RC bugs more than saving 2 more days in the usual NMU process.

So I believe the change is not very relevant. But I have no reason to
object.

That said I truly believe that RC bugs should be treated as high-priority
issues by maintainers and that we should have the required information in
the bug log ("I'll take care of it at <this point>", "I have no idea how
to fix this, any help welcome" + tag help, etc.).

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


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Old 05-07-2011, 10:51 AM
Jakub Wilk
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

* Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>, 2011-05-07, 09:12:
A patch was proposed (#625449) to implement in dvelopers-reference the
"DELAYED/0 for upload fixing only release-critical bugs older than 7
days, without maintainer activity for 7 days" policy.


I don't think that this policy is a good idea. But, since I was one of
the drivers of the DEP that resulted in the current NMU policy
(http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep1.html), I'm a bit biased, and I
thought I would bring this proposed change to the attention of
-devel@, so that we can get more feedback.


I wonder how many people made use of that 0-day NMU rule. I have always
interpreted those "rules" as “go ahead with NMUs, if the maintainer is
a jerk and complain, we'll be on your side”.


This works both ways. If a NMUer uploaded my package without a delay and
without a good reason[0], I want to be able to yell at him „you are

a jerk (according to Developers Reference)!”

Unfortunately, clueless NMUers do exist.

[0] No, 7 days without activity in the bug log is not a good enough
reason. Let's turn our empathy on and face it: we are not bug-fixing
monkeys and 7 days is a very short time frame.


--
Jakub Wilk


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Old 05-07-2011, 12:10 PM
Charles Plessy
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

Le Fri, May 06, 2011 at 11:14:55PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum a écrit :
>
> - The dev-ref documents the "default" choice. While there are cases where I
> agree that uploading the fixed package ASAP is necessary, in most cases, we
> can probably survive two more days with the bug, if we already survived more
> than 7 days.

Dear Lucas and everybody,

I also think that not all RC bugs are equal. What Lucas wrote above is
reflected by that some RC bugs will be uploaded with a “low” urgency, while
some others will have a higher one. In http://bugs.debian.org/625449#85, I am
proposing the following:

- urgency=emergency: no communication needed.
- urgency=high: normal upload if no activity for 7 days.
- urgency=medium: DELAYED/2 if no activity for 7 days.
- urgency=low: ask first.

Cheers,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Old 05-07-2011, 12:14 PM
Raphael Hertzog
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

Hi,

On Sat, 07 May 2011, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> This works both ways. If a NMUer uploaded my package without a delay
> and without a good reason[0], I want to be able to yell at him „you
> are a jerk (according to Developers Reference)!”

No.

First off, I never said that the rules are there to be able to badmouth
people. So calling someone a jerk is never a good idea.

And whatever mistake made, the NMU is still someone trying to help you, so
you should respond calmly: "Thank you for the NMU but the issue really did
not warrant a direct upload, you would have saved us some troubles by
contacting me or by uploading to DELAYED."

> [0] No, 7 days without activity in the bug log is not a good enough
> reason. Let's turn our empathy on and face it: we are not bug-fixing
> monkeys and 7 days is a very short time frame.

We're speaking of RC bugs, you should not have plenty of RC bugs on your
shoulders...

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Follow my Debian News ▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.com (English)
▶ http://RaphaelHertzog.fr (Français)


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Old 05-07-2011, 01:00 PM
Neil Williams
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

On Sat, 7 May 2011 12:51:46 +0200
Jakub Wilk <jwilk@debian.org> wrote:

> [0] No, 7 days without activity in the bug log is not a good enough
> reason. Let's turn our empathy on and face it: we are not bug-fixing
> monkeys and 7 days is a very short time frame.

It's 7 days without maintainer response - if you're busy, as well get
from time to time, it just means that you explain that in the bug
report with just a single email. Let people know - we're not mind
readers. RC bugs are on the radar of every DD, you may have told those
you work with often that things are busy in real life, doesn't mean
that someone else affected by the RC bug will know, unless you put just
a brief note in the actual bug report.

It's an open development model, so communicate openly - even if you're
busy, sending a short reply to the bug report shouldn't be beyond what
Debian can justifiably expect from any maintainer.

7 days without email is a good enough reason to assume that the
maintainer isn't going to uploading a fix any time soon.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 05-07-2011, 01:08 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

On Sat, May 07, 2011 at 12:51:46PM +0200, Jakub Wilk wrote:
> This works both ways. If a NMUer uploaded my package without a delay
> and without a good reason[0], I want to be able to yell at him „you
> are
> a jerk (according to Developers Reference)!”
>
> Unfortunately, clueless NMUers do exist.

It's all a matter of trade-offs. You're right that clueless NMUers do
exist. OTOH very good NMUers that won't go ahead because a policy tell
them not to go ahead exist as well. The question is whether there are
more people in the first camp or people in the second camp. In my
experience with NMUs---both as NMUers and as NMUed maintainer---I tend
to believe in Debian we have way more people on the cautious side than
clueless NMUers.

Ultimately, having an overcautious policy for NMUs has the potential of
blocking bug fixes and evolution in our project. I think we really need
to fight that and that we should tolerate the risk of a handful clueless
NMUers going ahead. Of course, when that happen, we should take good
care of explaining to them why their approach was suboptimal and not in
the best interest of Debian. I believe that way we can in the long run
both increase our culture of doing good NMUs and avoiding overzealous
blockers that will simply delay our procedures and increase frustration
on people that know they can just go ahead and fix a broken package.

But I agree that this policy should not force maintainers of several
packages to ping their bug logs every 7 days, although at the very
minimum I do expect a maintainer to post to an RC bug log at least once
an "I'm on it" message. I've proposed before, for this change, to stress
that the NMUer should do a best effort attempt to verify whether the
maintainer is working on the fix, for instance by looking at VCS head of
the package, asking on IRC, or the like.

Finally, considering this policy has been in effect for 5 years or so,
and considering that devref states guidelines rather than hard rules, I
believe the _practical_ impact of this change would be very low.

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 05-08-2011, 07:20 PM
gregor herrmann
 
Default 0-day NMUs for RC bugs without activity for 7 days?

On Sat, 07 May 2011 15:08:37 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

> But I agree that this policy should not force maintainers of several
> packages to ping their bug logs every 7 days, although at the very
> minimum I do expect a maintainer to post to an RC bug log at least once
> an "I'm on it" message.

Ack, I've also read the "no reaction within 7 days" as "no short mail
to the BTS withing the first seven days".

> I've proposed before, for this change, to stress
> that the NMUer should do a best effort attempt to verify whether the
> maintainer is working on the fix, for instance by looking at VCS head of
> the package, asking on IRC, or the like.

I'd prefer to narrow this down to visible activity in the bug report;
if we have to hunt down maintainers on all possible and impossible
channgles, that doesn't scale ...

> Finally, considering this policy has been in effect for 5 years or so,
> and considering that devref states guidelines rather than hard rules, I
> believe the _practical_ impact of this change would be very low.

/me nods.


Cheers,
gregor

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