Linux Archive

Linux Archive (http://www.linux-archive.org/)
-   Debian Development (http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/)
-   -   Integrating aptosid? (http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/521533-integrating-aptosid.html)

Lucas Nussbaum 05-03-2011 12:42 PM

Integrating aptosid?
 
On 03/05/11 at 13:31 +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> I've suggested integrating aptosid (or $derivative) people inside of
> Debian as a way to provide rolling, I know that Joss did so on planet
> too e.g. That has two very important advantages:
> * it brings in new blood *now* (and not an hypothetical later) to
> actually take care of rolling (which doesn't make all my reservation
> moot but I reckon does lessen their scope significantly);
> * it brings people who know how to do that and already have
> infrastructure to do so. We would just give them the opportunity to
> benefit from the larger and robust infrastructure we have, while
> taking their experience. Looks like it's win-win.
> They probably have good ideas on what could be improved in Debian to
> make their job easier, while *we* don't since we never tried.

It's not as simple as "let's integrate aptosid". There are at least two
sides to this:
- integrate the developers community in Debian. They are probably very
nice etc, but:
1) they are not currently Debian contributors (even if some of them
might be)
2) they might not adhere to Debian's values
3) they decided to start a separate project, they might have good
reasons to do it outside Debian
- integrate the technical processes inside Debian. We can't just add
aptosid as a new Debian suite: that would be the worst solution
(important overhead since Debian maintainers would have to care for
unstable, testing and aptosid, then). So we need to work out solutions
to reduce the overhead, and all the former discussion applies.

Also, FYI, the aptosid development team is composed of 8 to 10 developers,
contributing to different things at different levels (info gathered on
#aptosid@OFTC).

- Lucas


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110503124226.GA19070@xanadu.blop.info">http://lists.debian.org/20110503124226.GA19070@xanadu.blop.info

Pierre Habouzit 05-03-2011 01:05 PM

Integrating aptosid?
 
On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 02:42:26PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 03/05/11 at 13:31 +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > I've suggested integrating aptosid (or $derivative) people inside of
> > Debian as a way to provide rolling, I know that Joss did so on planet
> > too e.g. That has two very important advantages:
> > * it brings in new blood *now* (and not an hypothetical later) to
> > actually take care of rolling (which doesn't make all my reservation
> > moot but I reckon does lessen their scope significantly);
> > * it brings people who know how to do that and already have
> > infrastructure to do so. We would just give them the opportunity to
> > benefit from the larger and robust infrastructure we have, while
> > taking their experience. Looks like it's win-win.
> > They probably have good ideas on what could be improved in Debian to
> > make their job easier, while *we* don't since we never tried.
>
> It's not as simple as "let's integrate aptosid". There are at least two
> sides to this:
> - integrate the developers community in Debian. They are probably very
> nice etc, but:
> 1) they are not currently Debian contributors (even if some of them
> might be)

That's not a real issue.

> 2) they might not adhere to Debian's values

That would be one.

> 3) they decided to start a separate project, they might have good
> reasons to do it outside Debian

The most likely would be (1)

> - integrate the technical processes inside Debian. We can't just add
> aptosid as a new Debian suite: that would be the worst solution
> (important overhead since Debian maintainers would have to care for
> unstable, testing and aptosid, then). So we need to work out solutions
> to reduce the overhead, and all the former discussion applies.

I know it's not simple, but it's not necessarily harder than making
testing usable, I think Joss made a pretty good case about that on his
blog.

> Also, FYI, the aptosid development team is composed of 8 to 10 developers,
> contributing to different things at different levels (info gathered on
> #aptosid@OFTC).

aptosid is just an example, I don't even know the distro, they may not
be the best choice, I just try to find alternates ideas. Note that I
don't think it takes more than 10 people to do the rolling distro like
Joss propose it: snapshot unstable every month and fix the worst
breakages. It takes more than 10 people to do the same in testing
because each individual fix is tangled in the migration issue, hence
rapidly needs to update things that are at first totally unrelated to be
fixed too first.
--
O Pierre Habouzit
O madcoder@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110503130534.GO452@madism.org">http://lists.debian.org/20110503130534.GO452@madism.org

Pierre Habouzit 05-03-2011 01:07 PM

Integrating aptosid?
 
On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 03:05:34PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 02:42:26PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > It's not as simple as "let's integrate aptosid". There are at least two
> > sides to this:
> > - integrate the developers community in Debian. They are probably very
> > nice etc, but:
> > 1) they are not currently Debian contributors (even if some of them
> > might be)
>
> That's not a real issue.
>
> > 2) they might not adhere to Debian's values
>
> That would be one.
>
> > 3) they decided to start a separate project, they might have good
> > reasons to do it outside Debian
>
> The most likely would be (1)
Or/and the impression that the idea has no support within Debian.

IOW I don't see real blockers here if we have the intention (and that
they agree).
--
O Pierre Habouzit
O madcoder@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110503130724.GP452@madism.org">http://lists.debian.org/20110503130724.GP452@madism.org

Lucas Nussbaum 05-03-2011 01:17 PM

Integrating aptosid?
 
On 03/05/11 at 15:05 +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> aptosid is just an example, I don't even know the distro, they may not
> be the best choice, I just try to find alternates ideas. Note that I
> don't think it takes more than 10 people to do the rolling distro like
> Joss propose it: snapshot unstable every month and fix the worst
> breakages. It takes more than 10 people to do the same in testing
> because each individual fix is tangled in the migration issue, hence
> rapidly needs to update things that are at first totally unrelated to be
> fixed too first.

By proposing to provide a snapshot every month, you are proposing a
different point in the "quality/up-to-date-ness" compromise map. This
compromise looks less appealling to me than the "rolling==testing" or
the aptosid ones.

Also, are you aware of the monthly snapshots built by Michael Gilbert?
See http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/04/msg00397.html

- Lucas


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110503131718.GA20708@xanadu.blop.info">http://lists.debian.org/20110503131718.GA20708@xanadu.blop.info

Pierre Habouzit 05-03-2011 01:18 PM

Integrating aptosid?
 
On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 03:17:18PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 03/05/11 at 15:05 +0200, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> > aptosid is just an example, I don't even know the distro, they may not
> > be the best choice, I just try to find alternates ideas. Note that I
> > don't think it takes more than 10 people to do the rolling distro like
> > Joss propose it: snapshot unstable every month and fix the worst
> > breakages. It takes more than 10 people to do the same in testing
> > because each individual fix is tangled in the migration issue, hence
> > rapidly needs to update things that are at first totally unrelated to be
> > fixed too first.
>
> By proposing to provide a snapshot every month, you are proposing a
> different point in the "quality/up-to-date-ness" compromise map. This
> compromise looks less appealling to me than the "rolling==testing" or
> the aptosid ones.
>
> Also, are you aware of the monthly snapshots built by Michael Gilbert?
> See http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/04/msg00397.html

I don't advocate it, I'm just saying there are other options that
haven't been discussed yet. I don't really know which is better for the
user, I couldn't care less (I've already stated I'm fine with unstable
right? ;p). Though technically such a solution has less impact on our
current release workflow and I prefer it.
--
O Pierre Habouzit
O madcoder@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20110503131855.GQ452@madism.org">http://lists.debian.org/20110503131855.GQ452@madism.org


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:43 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.