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Old 04-30-2011, 10:56 AM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default PPAs for Debian

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:07:24PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Philipp Kern (trash@philkern.de) [110430 09:49]:
> > It's not that it isn't meant. Of course we could also look at overlay
> > solutions. (That said, while I'm very happy about mozilla.debian.net, I
> > somehow still feel that those packages should be added in a co-installable way
> > into some official suites. But then you get back to the "we don't support
> > all architectures yet" department, I presume.)
>
> I think it would make quite sense to get something like e.g. ppa done for
> Debian. But thats something else than it's proposed here.

Yes, absolutely. I'd even dare to say that having something like PPA for
Debian is a priority. It would be yet another way to enable people to
experiment with big changes in Debian, showing their value, with minimum
impact on the work of others.

It happens that I've a recent update on this topic to share. There were
some concerns about the need of something like a NEW queue for Debian's
PPA, for legal reasons. I had a long phone call with SPI lawyer about
this just yesterday. It turns out that there are a few provisions we
should follow to stay on the safe side, but there is no specific blocker
either. We can go ahead, individual maintainers will be responsible of
what they upload / distribute via PPA.

What we lack for that to become a reality is "just" the code. Marc and
Tollef had set up a nice proposal [1] for GSoC this year and were
willing to mentor it, but unfortunately no student has shown up. If
there are people willing to contribute some development cycles to Debian
(no need to be a DD), that's a wonderful opportunity.

Some FAQ on this topic:

Q: Why don't you use Launchpad's PPA?
A: Last time I looked into it (together with some Launchpad engineers at
past UDS), the PPA module was too tightly integrated with other
Launchpad parts to be deployable on Debian infrastructure

Q: Didn't Canonical offer a PPA service to Debian?
A: Only rumors, TTBOMK. And anyhow I believe it would be better to have
an independent infrastructure that we are in full control of. That
poses extra constraints on which kind of offer would fit our needs
(constraints that we cannot force an independent company to fulfill)

Cheers.

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/SummerOfCode2011/DevPkgRepo

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 04-30-2011, 11:04 AM
Andreas Barth
 
Default PPAs for Debian

* Stefano Zacchiroli (leader@debian.org) [110430 12:56]:
> What we lack for that to become a reality is "just" the code. Marc and
> Tollef had set up a nice proposal [1] for GSoC this year and were
> willing to mentor it, but unfortunately no student has shown up. If
> there are people willing to contribute some development cycles to Debian
> (no need to be a DD), that's a wonderful opportunity.

Yes, PPAs "just" need someone who does it. Not more, but also not
less.



Andi


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Old 05-02-2011, 02:10 PM
Adnan Hodzic
 
Default PPAs for Debian

I too believe PPA for Debian is a "must have", I personally was
thinking of making my own repository where I would "store" packages
before having them pushed into Debian, even if it was for
experimental.

Putting packages on Ubuntu PPA just doesn't feel right, thus I fully
support this idea and would even help with realization of the same if
the time allows me.


Adnan

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org> wrote:
> * Stefano Zacchiroli (leader@debian.org) [110430 12:56]:
>> What we lack for that to become a reality is "just" the code. Marc and
>> Tollef had set up a nice proposal [1] for GSoC this year and were
>> willing to mentor it, but unfortunately no student has shown up. If
>> there are people willing to contribute some development cycles to Debian
>> (no need to be a DD), that's a wonderful opportunity.
>
> Yes, PPAs "just" need someone who does it. Not more, but also not
> less.
>
>
>
> Andi
>
>
> --
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>
>


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Old 05-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Roland Mas
 
Default PPAs for Debian

Stefano Zacchiroli, 2011-04-30 12:56:15 +0200 :

[...]

> What we lack for that to become a reality is "just" the code. Marc and
> Tollef had set up a nice proposal [1] for GSoC this year and were
> willing to mentor it, but unfortunately no student has shown up. If
> there are people willing to contribute some development cycles to
> Debian (no need to be a DD), that's a wonderful opportunity.

And if the system were to be integrated somewhat into Alioth, I'm pretty
sure the upstreams for FusionForge would be glad to offer guidance. I
would, at any rate.

It just so happens that there's going to be an Alioth sprint in a bit
less than three weeks. Want to join us to discuss the matter and/or
start an implementation? Head to
http://wiki.debian.org/Sprints/2011/AliothSprint (even if it's little
more than a skeleton so far).

Roland.
--
Roland Mas

Qu'est-ce qui est petit, jaune et vachement dangereux ?
Un canari avec le mot de passe de root.


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Old 05-02-2011, 03:55 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default PPAs for Debian

On Mon, May 02, 2011 at 05:42:04PM +0200, Roland Mas wrote:
> It just so happens that there's going to be an Alioth sprint in a bit
> less than three weeks. Want to join us to discuss the matter and/or
> start an implementation? Head to
> http://wiki.debian.org/Sprints/2011/AliothSprint (even if it's little
> more than a skeleton so far).

Wonderful idea! If someone wants to pick up the challenge and join the
sprint, please let me know, even though budget for the sprint has been
already finalized, I'll be happy to reconsider for the PPA holy grail.
(But beware: you risk to be tricked by the Alioth admins into joining
them ...)

Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 05-03-2011, 12:05 AM
Brian May
 
Default PPAs for Debian

On 30 April 2011 20:56, Stefano Zacchiroli <leader@debian.org> wrote:

Some FAQ on this topic:



Q: Why don't you use Launchpad's PPA?

A: Last time I looked into it (together with some Launchpad engineers at

* past UDS), the PPA module was too tightly integrated with other

* Launchpad parts to be deployable on Debian infrastructure

I don't think it is currently possible to use *Launchpad's PPA to build against non-Ubuntu distributions (or that is the impression I get anyway).

Would really like to see a PPA based system that supports building against Debian stable and unstable.--
Brian May <brian@microcomaustralia.com.au>
 
Old 05-03-2011, 03:04 AM
Yaroslav Halchenko
 
Default PPAs for Debian

On Sat, 30 Apr 2011, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> Yes, absolutely. I'd even dare to say that having something like PPA for
> Debian is a priority. It would be yet another way to enable people to
> experiment with big changes in Debian, showing their value, with minimum
> impact on the work of others.

+10

Also, because Debian is the mothership, we might be kind to the "kids"
and Debian PPA could carry a selection of derivatives' (e.g. Ubuntus)
releases, thus providing the ultimate PPA hosting.

Sorry if I have missed it -- do we have anywhere (wiki) a page outlining
design/concerns/etc about PPA implementation in Debian . It might be
worth getting it out so we could collect our thoughts.

--
=------------------------------------------------------------------=
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Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic


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Old 05-03-2011, 08:46 PM
René Mayorga
 
Default PPAs for Debian

On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:56:15PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:07:24PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> >
> > I think it would make quite sense to get something like e.g. ppa done for
> > Debian. But thats something else than it's proposed here.
>
> Yes, absolutely. I'd even dare to say that having something like PPA for
> Debian is a priority.

I do not agree on this, if the package is good enough and has somebody willing
to maintain it, the package may belong to the archive.

If the package is on the archive it will get automatic and manual QA tests, and
it can take advantage on all the already existing tools(PTS, DDPO, BTS, etc).

but if we set yet another archive that will be open for anyone (like PPA) we will
get packages with low quality, and maybe some users blaming debian about the
quality being dropped when they confuse this and think those are official
packages/repositories.

Cheers

--
René
 
Old 05-03-2011, 09:30 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default PPAs for Debian

On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 02:46:11PM -0600, René Mayorga wrote:
> > Yes, absolutely. I'd even dare to say that having something like PPA for
> > Debian is a priority.
>
> I do not agree on this, if the package is good enough and has somebody willing
> to maintain it, the package may belong to the archive.
>
> If the package is on the archive it will get automatic and manual QA tests, and
> it can take advantage on all the already existing tools(PTS, DDPO, BTS, etc).
>
> but if we set yet another archive that will be open for anyone (like PPA) we will
> get packages with low quality, and maybe some users blaming debian about the
> quality being dropped when they confuse this and think those are official
> packages/repositories.

There are two views of PPAs, one is internal for developers, one is
external for users.

The internal for developers is offering a lightweight framework to
experiment with changes that would be otherwise unfeasible to experiment
with (for a whole lot of reasons, e.g.: it's freeze time and you can't
upload "dangerous" stuff; you can't use experimental because you're
already using it with another development line; you want to show that
you've valuable changes to offer also for packages you do not maintain
and with which the legitimate maintainer disagree and want to be
convinced you're right). According to that view, PPAs are nothing short
of a "debhub" (see one of the first mails from Pierre Habouzit in this
thread, who has surely described this concept better than me in this
paragraph).

The view above is the one I see as a priority for Debian, as it will
enable developers to experiment with important changes against the
inertia that plagues us (or "too big size", as put down by others in
this thread).

The user view is different, is about using PPAs to deliver non-official
packages to users. I agree that such a view might be plagued by the
problem you mention. Of course, being realistic, to have the above view
we will also need a way for the users to test packages as developers
themselves will need to test "forked" packages in the first place. As
long as it is clear that PPAs are not official Debian and it is not "too
easy" to get to them, I don't see a problem with it. After all, in that
respect what is the difference between that and unofficial APT
repositories that many of us already maintain at people.d.o/~something
or something.debian.net? Do you want to shut them down as well?

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 05-03-2011, 09:31 PM
Andreas Barth
 
Default PPAs for Debian

* René Mayorga (rmayorga@debian.org) [110503 22:52]:
> On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:56:15PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 12:07:24PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > >
> > > I think it would make quite sense to get something like e.g. ppa done for
> > > Debian. But thats something else than it's proposed here.
> >
> > Yes, absolutely. I'd even dare to say that having something like PPA for
> > Debian is a priority.
>
> I do not agree on this, if the package is good enough and has somebody willing
> to maintain it, the package may belong to the archive.

Eh, the PPAs we are speaking about is like "new features to existing
packages". Yes, we need to avoid PPAs which are just dead ends.


Andi


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