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Old 02-09-2008, 06:48 PM
David Paleino
 
Default Binaries with the same name

Il giorno Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:28:23 +0100
sean finney <seanius@debian.org> ha scritto:

> hi,

Hi,

> On Saturday 09 February 2008 07:48:08 pm David Paleino wrote:
> > Is this the Right Way to behave? And what if <anibal> doesn't reply to that
> > bug? Should I file my RFS nevertheless, thus expecting a RC bug filed?
> > Should I rename my binary (and to what? "translate-generic"?!)?
>
> while i don't have any specific knowledge or interest in the details of this
> particular problem, i'd just add since you haven't mentioned it as an
> alternative that you could always Conflict with the package in question while
> waiting for a resolution.

That seems like a last-resort to me. I believe that both packages could
cohexist -- yet they might have kinda the same functionalities for
german-speaking users. But I don't want to force people to choose, if there's
no valid reason. Again, I'll wait, but if Anibal doesn't show up I believe I'll
add a Conflicts:.

Thank you for this pointer

David

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Old 02-10-2008, 09:16 AM
Lars Wirzenius
 
Default Binaries with the same name

On la, 2008-02-09 at 19:48 +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> The problem is that "translate" by <anibal> does only de<->en translations,
> while "my" translate offers a wider range of options and conversions (and it's
> expandable, through a XML configuration file). Thus I don't believe that using
> the alternatives system (which, I admit, I cannot use, since I never needed it
> for my packages) would be a suitable solution. This is way I suggested him to
> rename his binary to something less generic than "translate".

In general, the problem with renaming in these kinds of situations is
that the older package has users and some of those users are used to the
old name of the binary in the old package. If it's just a matter of
training users, it's not a huge deal, but there might be programmatic
uses, which would have to be tracked down. Thus, it is generally
speaking better to let the old package keep the binary name and pick a
new name for the binary in the new package.

This is an example of why it's best to avoid introducing generic names
into the name space: in a distribution as large as Debian, sooner or
later there will be a clash. Thus, in an ideal world, neither of these
two packages would contain a binary called translate.

In the real world, in my opinion, we stick to "first come, first
served", meaning that you, David, should rename the binary in your
package. This is suboptimal, but as far as I can see, the best
situation.

(We should also stick to shaking a finger at anibal, for introducing a
generic name. And at me for being verbose and for putting entire
paragraphs in parentheses. (It's an afflication I got from implementing
my own Lisp. (Although, actually, I did it even beforehand. (So perhaps
it's really that I implemented my own Lisp to be able to use parentheses
without making an ass of myself.))))

Alternatives are an option if both commands do the same thing, and have
more or less the same command line interface. Is that the situation
here?

Conflicts would be the wrong solution, as you pointed in a later mail.
Since the only reason for the conflict is the clash in binary names,
preventing users to have the two packages installed at the same time is
unnecessary.



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Old 02-10-2008, 09:52 AM
David Paleino
 
Default Binaries with the same name

Il giorno Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:16:17 +0200
Lars Wirzenius <liw@iki.fi> ha scritto:

> On la, 2008-02-09 at 19:48 +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> > The problem is that "translate" by <anibal> does only de<->en translations,
> > while "my" translate offers a wider range of options and conversions (and
> > it's expandable, through a XML configuration file). Thus I don't believe
> > that using the alternatives system (which, I admit, I cannot use, since I
> > never needed it for my packages) would be a suitable solution. This is way
> > I suggested him to rename his binary to something less generic than
> > "translate".
>
> In general, the problem with renaming in these kinds of situations is
> that the older package has users and some of those users are used to the
> old name of the binary in the old package. If it's just a matter of
> training users, it's not a huge deal, but there might be programmatic
> uses, which would have to be tracked down. Thus, it is generally
> speaking better to let the old package keep the binary name and pick a
> new name for the binary in the new package.

In fact, the Ubuntu package renames it to "translate-bin". But that's awkward
to me: what's the difference between "translate" and "translate-bin"? One
should have to read both manpages to understand. But if we have, for example,
"translate-de-en" and "translate", the differences are clear. However, I don't
believe I'll ever use translate-bin.

Looking at the package information of translate, it already depends on a
"trans-de-en", which is clearer to me. (trans-de-en is the dictionary,
translate is the tool using it)

> This is an example of why it's best to avoid introducing generic names
> into the name space: in a distribution as large as Debian, sooner or
> later there will be a clash. Thus, in an ideal world, neither of these
> two packages would contain a binary called translate.

Agreed on that; educating upstream is sometimes difficult though (i.e. I
haven't contacted upstream yet -- I'd like to see if the thing is solvable
inside Debian)

> In the real world, in my opinion, we stick to "first come, first
> served", meaning that you, David, should rename the binary in your
> package. This is suboptimal, but as far as I can see, the best
> situation.

As already stated, I'll do that only if really necessary / if the clash is
unsolvable. Please read further in the next paragraph.

> ...
>
> Alternatives are an option if both commands do the same thing, and have
> more or less the same command line interface. Is that the situation
> here?

I think not.

(from libtranslate-bin)
$ translate -h
Synopsis:
translate {-? | -v | --list-services}
translate [-s SERVICES] [-f LANG] [-t LANG] -l
translate [-s SERVICES] [-f LANG] [-t LANG] {HTTP_URL | HTTPS_URL}
translate [-s SERVICES] [-f LANG] [-t LANG] [--max-threads=N]
[--max-retries=N] [FILE]
...
-l, --list-pairs List the available language pairs
$ translate -l | wc -l
948
$

(from translate)
$ translate -h
...
USAGE:
translate [-niwvh] [-l languages] [words to translate]
...
$

where currently -l look for files in /usr/share/trans/. And there's just a
package providing files in the whole Debian distribution: trans-de-en:

$ apt-file search /usr/share/trans/
trans-de-en: usr/share/trans/de-en
$


I believe I can claim the use of the generic name "translate".

Using alternatives would be the best solution to me, since they provide
"more-or-less" the same functionality. Yet, translate covers only de-en, while
libtranslate-bin covers more pairs.

(and the main difference is that translate uses a local dictionary, while
libtranslate-bin needs an Internet connection to lookup translations)

> Conflicts would be the wrong solution, as you pointed in a later mail.
> Since the only reason for the conflict is the clash in binary names,
> preventing users to have the two packages installed at the same time is
> unnecessary.

True.

I won't post an RFS before solving this situation.

Kindly,
David

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: :' : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/
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Old 02-10-2008, 10:23 AM
Lars Wirzenius
 
Default Binaries with the same name

On su, 2008-02-10 at 11:52 +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> I believe I can claim the use of the generic name "translate".

I think I wasn't clear enough in my previous mail: I don't think anyone
should use the generic name "translate", and the fact that it is already
being used is unfortunately. I definitely think you should pick another
name.

Speaking as a bystander, without decision-making power.



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Old 02-10-2008, 10:51 AM
David Paleino
 
Default Binaries with the same name

Il giorno Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:23:47 +0200
Lars Wirzenius <liw@iki.fi> ha scritto:

> On su, 2008-02-10 at 11:52 +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> > I believe I can claim the use of the generic name "translate".
>
> I think I wasn't clear enough in my previous mail: I don't think anyone
> should use the generic name "translate", and the fact that it is already
> being used is unfortunately. I definitely think you should pick another
> name.

Ok, then. Is translate-bin a right choice? Or is that too generic?

Kindly,
David

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Old 02-10-2008, 11:17 AM
Frank Lichtenheld
 
Default Binaries with the same name

On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 12:51:46PM +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> Il giorno Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:23:47 +0200
> Lars Wirzenius <liw@iki.fi> ha scritto:
>
> > On su, 2008-02-10 at 11:52 +0100, David Paleino wrote:
> > > I believe I can claim the use of the generic name "translate".
> >
> > I think I wasn't clear enough in my previous mail: I don't think anyone
> > should use the generic name "translate", and the fact that it is already
> > being used is unfortunately. I definitely think you should pick another
> > name.
>
> Ok, then. Is translate-bin a right choice? Or is that too generic?

Since -bin in itself is generic, too (after all, it could probably be
appended to all programs), the result is as generic as the both parts

Making a name less generic requires either qualifying it with some kind
of detail (e.g. gnome-, k, g, qt for the desktop environments and
toolkits) or better yet choose a name that has nothing to do with its
use (e.g. iceweasel).

If you want to keep the name close to the library name, you could
probably choose something like libtranslate-bin, although I personaly
find that ugly.

Gruesse,
--
Frank Lichtenheld <djpig@debian.org>
www: http://www.djpig.de/


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Old 02-10-2008, 11:50 AM
David Paleino
 
Default Binaries with the same name

(please do _not_ CC me

Il giorno Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:17:30 +0100
Frank Lichtenheld <djpig@debian.org> ha scritto:

> On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 12:51:46PM +0100, David Paleino wrote:
>
> > Ok, then. Is translate-bin a right choice? Or is that too generic?
>
> Since -bin in itself is generic, too (after all, it could probably be
> appended to all programs), the result is as generic as the both parts

I suspected that

(it was just for uniformity -- *buntu users have that program named
translate-bin)

> Making a name less generic requires either qualifying it with some kind
> of detail (e.g. gnome-, k, g, qt for the desktop environments and
> toolkits) or better yet choose a name that has nothing to do with its
> use (e.g. iceweasel).

Well, this tool is used from CLI, thus has nothing to do with GNOME, KDE, Xfce,
*. I might think of another name, but... isn't this upstream's job?

> If you want to keep the name close to the library name, you could
> probably choose something like libtranslate-bin, although I personaly
> find that ugly.

Me too, that's awful.

I'll contact upstream, let's see what he thinks.

Kindly,
David

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Old 02-10-2008, 12:00 PM
Frans Pop
 
Default Binaries with the same name

David Paleino wrote:
> "My" program is not GNOME-specific. You're confusing it with
> gnome-translate, which is a GUI to libtranslate, which is the package
> we're talking about (yes, libtranslate provides a CLI command, which is
> "translate")

Yeah, I had a look at the upstream website later and saw that. You did not
really make that clear in your original mail though.

Frank Lichtenheld wrote:
> Making a name less generic requires either qualifying it with some kind
> of detail (e.g. gnome-, k, g, qt for the desktop environments and
> toolkits) or better yet choose a name that has nothing to do with its
> use (e.g. iceweasel).

Agreed.
As the program requires internet access, maybe web-translate or
net-translate.

Cheers,
FJP


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Old 02-10-2008, 02:49 PM
David Paleino
 
Default Binaries with the same name

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:00:41 +0100
Frans Pop <elendil@planet.nl> wrote:

> As the program requires internet access, maybe web-translate or
> net-translate.

After talking with upstream, he noticed that "my" translate does not
necessarily need Internet access, it can use also GNU Talkfilters offline. I'm
packaging them (they're not available in Debian), and I've agreed with the
author to rename the binary to "ntranslate" (i.e. "natural translate"):

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:35:00 +0100
Jean-Yves Lefort <jylefort@brutele.be> wrote:

> - net/web translate is not a good idea since services does not
> necessarily use the network. For instance the talkfilters
> service does not. Since the distinguishing feature of
> translate is that it translates between natural languages, you
> could rename it to "ntranslate" or something like that.

He was also kind of upset when I proposed him to rename the project:

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 14:45:36 +0100
Jean-Yves Lefort <jylefort@brutele.be> wrote:

> My project seems to be the most generic one, so I suggest to rename
> the other project de-translate or something.

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 16:35:00 +0100
Jean-Yves Lefort <jylefort@brutele.be> wrote:

> There is no reason to rename it. I know that my license allows it, but
> I discourage it. There are tons of generic names in /usr/bin that just
> sit there without bothering anybody.


I believe that renaming it to "ntranslate" is a good choice, I'll also update
all the references to it (the manpage, ...).


Regards,
David

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Old 02-10-2008, 04:40 PM
Frank Küster
 
Default Binaries with the same name

sean finney <seanius <at> debian.org> writes:

> while i don't have any specific knowledge or interest in the details of this
> particular problem, i'd just add since you haven't mentioned it as an
> alternative that you could always Conflict with the package in question while
> waiting for a resolution.

This is not possible; it would be a RC bug:

/--- Policy 10.1
| Two different packages must not install programs with different functionality
| but with the same filenames. (The case of two programs having the same
| functionality but different implementations is handled via "alternatives" or
| the "Conflicts" mechanism.
---

Regards, Frank


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