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Scott Kitterman 04-09-2011 05:49 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
On Saturday, April 09, 2011 01:26:12 PM Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Scott Kitterman (debian@kitterman.com) [110409 19:07]:
> > Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy should
> > be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed.
>
> Sure. Please feel free to fix that.
>
>
> Andi

Done. http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/Python2.7

Scott K


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"Michael Checca" 04-09-2011 06:27 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
On Sat, 09 Apr 2011 13:49:17 -0400, Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com>
wrote:



On Saturday, April 09, 2011 01:26:12 PM Andreas Barth wrote:

* Scott Kitterman (debian@kitterman.com) [110409 19:07]:
> Obviously that was a Squeeze goal. The equivalent goal for Wheezy
should

> be python2.7 as default and python2.5 and python2.6 removed.

Sure. Please feel free to fix that.


Andi


Done. http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/Python2.7

Scott K




I think that's best. Python itself treats 2.x and 3.x separately, so we
should as well (at least until development of 2.x stops).


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Barry Warsaw 04-11-2011 09:48 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
On Apr 09, 2011, at 01:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:

>We've treated python and python3 as separate runtime environments. We also
>have a default python3 (just in the middle of transitioning to 3.2). The
>only meaningful change that would make python3 the 'default python' is if we
>pointed /usr/bin/python at it. It is definitely premature to do that. If we
>ever contemplate such a change is will be several releases from now.

Just as a point of reference, there is a new PEP concerning recommendations
from upstream Python:

http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/

Cheers,
-Barry

Scott Kitterman 04-11-2011 11:22 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
Barry Warsaw <barry@python.org> wrote:

>On Apr 09, 2011, at 01:38 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
>
>>We've treated python and python3 as separate runtime environments. We
>also
>>have a default python3 (just in the middle of transitioning to 3.2).
>The
>>only meaningful change that would make python3 the 'default python' is
>if we
>>pointed /usr/bin/python at it. It is definitely premature to do that.
> If we
>>ever contemplate such a change is will be several releases from now.
>
>Just as a point of reference, there is a new PEP concerning
>recommendations
>from upstream Python:
>
>http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/
>
Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy.

It's certainly not anything we should let affect Debian Python until after it's approved.

Scott K


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Barry Warsaw 04-13-2011 01:22 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
On Apr 11, 2011, at 07:22 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:

>Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did
>improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The
>notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near term
>is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy.

I agree we're[*] not there yet. But I do think we're at a tipping point.
At Pycon 2011, where in previous years the responses were largely "we have no
plans to port to Python 3", it's now quite common to hear "we have an
experimental branch to support it" or "people are working on it". So I do
think it's worth Debian thinking about, planning for, and possibly helping
with a transition to Python 3.

Python 2 won't go away any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say we're
probably 18-24 months away from actually being *able* to make python3 the
default, which I think is pretty well aligned with Guido's 5-year plan.

Cheers,
-Barry
[*] and by "we" I mean the larger Python community, not just Debian.

Scott Kitterman 04-13-2011 01:37 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:22:44 AM Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Apr 11, 2011, at 07:22 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> >Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did
> >improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The
> >notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near
> >term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy.
>
> I agree we're[*] not there yet. But I do think we're at a tipping point.
> At Pycon 2011, where in previous years the responses were largely "we have
> no plans to port to Python 3", it's now quite common to hear "we have an
> experimental branch to support it" or "people are working on it". So I do
> think it's worth Debian thinking about, planning for, and possibly helping
> with a transition to Python 3.
>
> Python 2 won't go away any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say we're
> probably 18-24 months away from actually being *able* to make python3 the
> default, which I think is pretty well aligned with Guido's 5-year plan.
>
> Cheers,
> -Barry
>
>[*] and by "we" I mean the larger Python community, not just Debian.

If by "default" you mean something like "the version we normally use", then I
agree. If you mean pointing /usr/bin/python at a python3 version, I don't.
Taking that step is not just about what's in the archive, it's about the
stacks and stacks of small python scripts that are used everywhere, but never
published. Changing /usr/bin/python to be python3 is something I think
happens about one release before we remove python2 entirely. I don't think
that's where we'll be in two years.

Scott K


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Michael Gilbert 04-13-2011 01:42 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
Scott Kitterman wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 09:22:44 AM Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > On Apr 11, 2011, at 07:22 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> > >Hopefully it will gain additional sanity before approval (the authors did
> > >improve it based on comments I sent them it could still be better). The
> > >notion that /usr/bin/python pointing to any python3 version in the near
> > >term is anything other than crazy talk is, well, crazy.
> >
> > I agree we're[*] not there yet. But I do think we're at a tipping point.
> > At Pycon 2011, where in previous years the responses were largely "we have
> > no plans to port to Python 3", it's now quite common to hear "we have an
> > experimental branch to support it" or "people are working on it". So I do
> > think it's worth Debian thinking about, planning for, and possibly helping
> > with a transition to Python 3.
> >
> > Python 2 won't go away any time soon. If I had to guess, I'd say we're
> > probably 18-24 months away from actually being *able* to make python3 the
> > default, which I think is pretty well aligned with Guido's 5-year plan.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -Barry
> >
> >[*] and by "we" I mean the larger Python community, not just Debian.
>
> If by "default" you mean something like "the version we normally use", then I
> agree. If you mean pointing /usr/bin/python at a python3 version, I don't.
> Taking that step is not just about what's in the archive, it's about the
> stacks and stacks of small python scripts that are used everywhere, but never
> published. Changing /usr/bin/python to be python3 is something I think
> happens about one release before we remove python2 entirely. I don't think
> that's where we'll be in two years.

Can't that be solved in the release notes when that happens? Something
like:

python3 is now the default /usr/bin/python, so if you have existing
python2 scripts you will need to make sure to use /usr/bin/python2
instead (or convert them to python3).

Best wishes,
Mike


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Piotr Ożarowski 04-13-2011 01:51 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
[Michael Gilbert, 2011-04-13]
> Can't that be solved in the release notes when that happens? Something
> like:
>
> python3 is now the default /usr/bin/python, so if you have existing
> python2 scripts you will need to make sure to use /usr/bin/python2
> instead (or convert them to python3).

IMO we can change /usr/bin/python to point to python3 once Python 2.X
will no longer be supported by Debian, not sooner (as local scripts with
#!/usr/bin/python shebang would stop working anyway)
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Michael Gilbert 04-13-2011 02:00 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
Piotr Ożarowski wrote:

> [Michael Gilbert, 2011-04-13]
> > Can't that be solved in the release notes when that happens? Something
> > like:
> >
> > python3 is now the default /usr/bin/python, so if you have existing
> > python2 scripts you will need to make sure to use /usr/bin/python2
> > instead (or convert them to python3).
>
> IMO we can change /usr/bin/python to point to python3 once Python 2.X
> will no longer be supported by Debian, not sooner (as local scripts with
> #!/usr/bin/python shebang would stop working anyway)

I think it makes more sense to have a release or two where users can
fall back on python2. Well there needs to be at least one
where /usr/bin/python becomes python3 alerting users to the change and
giving them the python2 fallback, just so they have time to be prepared
for the permanent change.

Best wishes,
Mike


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Barry Warsaw 04-13-2011 03:38 PM

"Python2.6 as default"
 
On Apr 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Michael Gilbert wrote:

>I think it makes more sense to have a release or two where users can
>fall back on python2. Well there needs to be at least one
>where /usr/bin/python becomes python3 alerting users to the change and
>giving them the python2 fallback, just so they have time to be prepared
>for the permanent change.

I do agree that we could add the python2 symlink now so that folks who want to
prepare can start changing their #! lines to use /usr/bin/python2.

Cheers,
-Barry


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