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Old 04-04-2011, 05:38 PM
Tzafrir Cohen
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 04 avril 2011 * 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
> > But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
> > status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.
>
> I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to
> do, especially with the installation process.
>
> On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the
> scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll definitely
> try to find time to hack on this.

I'm not well-familiar with NM. I'm more familiar with wicd. I do feel NM
has some shortcomings for my habits:

(Please feel free to correct me where I'm factually incorrect. I
probably am)

It does have system-global config file. But the settings are not
expected to be there. By default the settings are expected to be in the
user directory (has this changed since 0.8?). So I won't easily find it
when I want to e.g. change configuration as root. This is unlike wicd
that keeps everything under /etc/wicd .

The configuration file is a simple, readable and intiutive text file
(ini-file. No XML or such nonsense). Some documentation and examples
would help.

What bothers me, though, is that each entry requires a unique
identifier field. Which makes it all too easy to make copy&paste
errors.

The command-line interface (nmcli) seems to be rather usable from the
little I have played with it.


Another issue I have had with it in the past is debugging. At least in
my experince, troubleshooting generally invloved killing the service and
restarting it in "debug mode". Which is something I would not really
like to instruct a newb. I hope there are better ways to debug it
without killing it.

--
Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
tzafrir@cohens.org.il | | best
tzafrir@debian.org | | friend


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Old 04-05-2011, 06:15 AM
"Bernhard R. Link"
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

* Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> [110404 14:05]:
> It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
> have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
> anything.

You mix two things up here: Almost noone demands a system that is only
configurable after reading a dozen pages of documentation to get it
work.

But what many people[1] want is that you can make it work if you read some
dozen pages of documentation.

It's the elementary freedom to "be able to fix it yourself". Having the
source and the right to modify the software is one part, but in practise
having a system that one can understand in depth and actualy force to
do what one want is an important aspect for people to choose Debian.

Having a nice automagic opaque interface with three buttons of the kind
"on", "off", "repair" might look very user-friendly.
But as every paternalism it is only nice as long as you want what your
superior wants.

And many people react very emotional to being the inferior of a computer
too stupid to understand anything.

Bernhard R. Link

[1] especially those that have always been a large group of Debian users


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Old 04-05-2011, 07:06 AM
Rens Houben
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

In other news for Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 08:15:55AM +0200, Bernhard R. Link has been seen typing:

> But what many people[1] want is that you can make it work if you read some
> dozen pages of documentation.

Personally, what I want is a setup that does not drop all active network
interfaces during a software upgrade because it needs to restart a
daemon.

Making network-manager honor an option along the lines of
"--leave-interfaces" during stop or restart would be a good start.


--
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Resident linux guru and sysadmin | if my employers have one
Systemec Internet Services. |they'll tell you themselves
PGP key at http://marduk.systemec.nl/~shadur/shadur.key.asc


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