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Old 04-04-2011, 07:55 AM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 12:00:01AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 10:52:33AM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> Yes, a user can do anything with ifconfig if his time has no value. I am
> happily using network manager on my laptop, because unlike ifconfig it's
> easy to configure for use on new wireless networks.

Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.

It is also preferable in that sense that you configure it once and it
works for years, surviving upgrades, etc. So in the end you conserve
your time, and not loose your time.

There is also a basic GUI if one needs it (wpa_gui).

> I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I
> would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with
> the existing infrastructure we had.

Exactly. There is ifplugd that implements some of the functionality
that is required to support dynamically appearing and disappearing
connections. It is a simple daemon that calls ifupdown when needed, so
that the old and good way of network configuration is respected.

But ifplugd needs some love, because it was mostly intended to be used
with ethernet cable connections (I managed to use it also with dynamic
tap interfaces, though).

--
Stanislav


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Old 04-04-2011, 12:05 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

Le lundi 04 avril 2011 * 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
> ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
> user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.

It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
anything.

I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I
thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the
Operating System for bearded gurus.

> It is also preferable in that sense that you configure it once and it
> works for years, surviving upgrades, etc. So in the end you conserve
> your time, and not loose your time.

Do you even know in what kind of contexts a laptop with wireless
connection is actually used? Because from your sentence it looks like
you live in a different world.

--
.'`.
: :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know
`. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.”
`- -- J???rg Schilling


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Old 04-04-2011, 12:19 PM
"Dmitry E. Oboukhov"
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

>> Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
>> ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
>> user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.

JM> It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
JM> have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
JM> anything.

JM> I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I
JM> thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the
JM> Operating System for bearded gurus.

User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be
forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.

There is no discrimination here.

I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to
please a user who doesn't want to read anything.
--

. '`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov
: :’ : email: unera@debian.org jabber://UNera@uvw.ru
`. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21
`- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537
 
Old 04-04-2011, 12:36 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

Le lundi 04 avril 2011 * 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit :
> User MUST study each OS he uses.

No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
opposite.

> If he doesn't want he will be
> forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.

A lot of users actually pay for that indeed. I don’t see this as a
problem, especially since it gets me to eat every day.

> There is no discrimination here.

Who talks about discrimination? It’s just being stubborn insisting that
people do the things you say while you are in no position to order them.

> I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to
> please a user who doesn't want to read anything.

If Debian could not be used without reading a manual, then I would call
it broken.

--
.'`.
: :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know
`. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.”
`- -- J???rg Schilling


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Old 04-04-2011, 12:45 PM
Lars Wirzenius
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

On ma, 2011-04-04 at 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be
> forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.

I dispute your assertion that our users must study the operating system
we build for them.

I not only dispute it, I counter-assert that we should not require
typical users to study anything much to be able to do typical things on
their Debian machines. Exactly what constitutes a typical user and
typical things to do is open to some interpretation and discussion.

> I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to
> please a user who doesn't want to read anything.

You're insulting again. Please stop.

Nobody here is interested in breaking Debian. We're interested in
improving it. As part of the process, we propose things that may or may
not be good ideas. If we can't do that without insults, we're much less
likely to have a constructive discussion, and we'll definitely have
fewer ideas proposed. That is a good way of making sure Debian will not
get better.

If you don't like, say, Network Manager, that's fine. Nobody is asking
you to like it. If you want to oppose NM replacing ifupdown, that's also
fine, but do it by explaining why it is a bad choice to make, without
insults, pointing out problems, and making a clear, cohesive argument.

It's a question of how you express your opinion, not whether it's an
acceptable opinion.

--
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Old 04-04-2011, 01:06 PM
"Dmitry E. Oboukhov"
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

>> User MUST study each OS he uses.

JM> No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the
JM> opposite.

Create OS that can even be used by stupid and only stupid will use
that.

>> If he doesn't want he will be
>> forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system.

JM> A lot of users actually pay for that indeed. I don’t see this as a
JM> problem, especially since it gets me to eat every day.

I said we shouldn't care about people who choose to pay You money
against (instead) to learn something.

>> There is no discrimination here.

JM> Who talks about discrimination? It’s just being stubborn insisting that
JM> people do the things you say while you are in no position to order them.

>> I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to
>> please a user who doesn't want to read anything.

JM> If Debian could not be used without reading a manual, then I would call
JM> it broken.

There is only one thing that can be used without reading a manual. It
is a breast. All the other devices (and things, substances, etc)
required to be studied.
--

. '`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov
: :’ : email: unera@debian.org jabber://UNera@uvw.ru
`. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21
`- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537
 
Old 04-04-2011, 01:18 PM
Ben Armstrong
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

On 04/04/2011 10:06 AM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:
> There is only one thing that can be used without reading a manual. It
> is a breast. All the other devices (and things, substances, etc)
> required to be studied.

While this paraphrase of a familiar quote may be applicable when taken
in context (in reference to user interfaces) it is not applicable here.
Some *basic* familiarity with computer user interfaces is, of course,
needed to use Debian. If you can type on a keyboard, know how to use a
mouse to click icons, know what menus and folders are, how to start
programs from menus and icons, well, I think you're off to a good start.
That stuff, unlike the nipple, is all learned.

The point is, assuming at least basic familiarity with computers, no
user should be *unable* to use Debian without having to first read a
manual! They should be able to boot a Debian system and right away start
using it productively. Inability to connect to a (often wireless, these
days) network is a show-stopper. Without a network, many users will not
be able to accomplish *anything* on Debian.

Now, NetworkManager seems to have delivered the goods, here, at least
for the common use scenarios I typically see for new users. That's what
makes it a good default. I say that without denying that for users
comfortable with other methods, NM may be totally unsuitable, but I
think for the majority of users, NM makes a better default.

Ben


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Old 04-04-2011, 01:31 PM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 04 avril 2011 * 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> > Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and
> > ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a
> > user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first.
>
> It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should
> have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do
> anything.
>
> I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I
> thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the
> Operating System for bearded gurus.

I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just

man interfaces
man wpa_supplicant.conf
zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz

(and for most cases just reading that README.Debian should be enough)

> > It is also preferable in that sense that you configure it once and it
> > works for years, surviving upgrades, etc. So in the end you conserve
> > your time, and not loose your time.
>
> Do you even know in what kind of contexts a laptop with wireless
> connection is actually used? Because from your sentence it looks like
> you live in a different world.

Perhaps, I do. I travel quite a lot, so I use my laptop in airports,
libraries, hotels, etc.

The wireless networks in public locations are usually open and do not
require any specific configuration; the most of them are catched with
a simple roaming setup outlined in that README from above, supplanted
with a default /e/n/interfaces stanza for DHCP-based networks. If one
instead prefers using a GUI, then there is wpa_gui with which one may
scan for networks, select the needed one, change parameters, etc.

I also use wireless at home and at the sites where I work. For these
locations I have several fixed stanzas in /e/n/interfaces and in
wpa_supplicant.conf that I do not need to touch at all.

--
Stanislav


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Old 04-04-2011, 01:39 PM
Ben Armstrong
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

On 04/04/2011 10:31 AM, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
> something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
> definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
>
> man interfaces
> man wpa_supplicant.conf
> zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz

Without "expert" help, no new user will find these. A Debian Squeeze
laptop user will have a broken network by default, and nothing obvious
pointing them to the answer. Just a mute (if pretty) desktop, blankly
defying them to get the network to work!

> The wireless networks in public locations are usually open and do not
> require any specific configuration; the most of them are catched with
> a simple roaming setup outlined in that README from above, supplanted
> with a default /e/n/interfaces stanza for DHCP-based networks. If one
> instead prefers using a GUI, then there is wpa_gui with which one may
> scan for networks, select the needed one, change parameters, etc.

I have done user support with countless new users on irc, first on
#debian-eeepc and recently, also on #debian. It is the very rare
(bearded guru? good one new Debian user that will have a happy time
jumping through the hoops to make wpa_supplicant work for them. And even
once they manage to make it work, I've *still* seen cafe connections
fail on my lovingly hand-crafted wpa_cli + wpa_supplicant setup that
succeed when I reboot to a Squeeze GNOME live image with NM. I to this
day have not been able to figure out why.

> I also use wireless at home and at the sites where I work. For these
> locations I have several fixed stanzas in /e/n/interfaces and in
> wpa_supplicant.conf that I do not need to touch at all.

That's good for you, clearly. Nobody's trying to argue that your
solution isn't a perfectly fine one for you, and others with similar
needs. But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.

Ben


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Old 04-04-2011, 02:03 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)

Le lundi 04 avril 2011 * 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit :
> But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the
> status quo. Something needs to change in the next release.

I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to
do, especially with the installation process.

On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the
scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll definitely
try to find time to hack on this.

--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-



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