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Old 04-03-2011, 10:56 AM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 02:37:26PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> If that happens I will seriously think about moving to another distro
> (I have been using Debian since around 1999). Or maybe to a *BSD.

You're entitled to choose your own distro. Still, please do not assume
that this sort of threatening is something useful to drive technical
decisions in Debian. In fact, I believe it just adds noise to technical
discussions, just imagine would happen if all users out there will start
using -devel to implement polls.

Please think of it and don't worry: technical decisions in Debian will
continue to be based on technical excellence.

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 04-03-2011, 12:09 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 01:07:12PM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> Debian is not about market-share, so losing users is no thread. It is
> only an information for us that we no longer helpful to some of our
> users.

The problem is that such a message only conveys the information that
*one* specific user will find our distro no long useful. In turn, that
might induce other users to post ack/nack to -devel and that would
hardly help driving technical discussions to conclusion.

Ultimately, my point is that user feedback is very useful, but we should
find better way to seek it (e.g. explicit polls) than encouraging users
to post their feedback to -devel.

Regarding the fact that my previous message could "drag this into an
insulting contest", I beg to disagree.

Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 04-03-2011, 12:34 PM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 12:56:40PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 02:37:26PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> > If that happens I will seriously think about moving to another distro
> > (I have been using Debian since around 1999). Or maybe to a *BSD.
>
> You're entitled to choose your own distro. Still, please do not assume
> that this sort of threatening is something useful to drive technical
> decisions in Debian.

Where do you see treatening there? I am just expressing my opinion, as
others do on the very same thread.

> In fact, I believe it just adds noise to technical discussions, just
> imagine would happen if all users out there will start using -devel
> to implement polls.

Since when we have debian-devel moderated? And please do not summarize
other's people mails to your own liking.

--
Stanislav


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Old 04-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 02:09:09PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 01:07:12PM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> > Debian is not about market-share, so losing users is no thread. It is
> > only an information for us that we no longer helpful to some of our
> > users.
>
> The problem is that such a message only conveys the information that
> *one* specific user will find our distro no long useful. In turn, that
> might induce other users to post ack/nack to -devel and that would
> hardly help driving technical discussions to conclusion.

I understand that you are in a position that forces you to think about
public relations and such, but if I were a DD I would be more happy if
DPL was a bit more focused on real problems.

> Ultimately, my point is that user feedback is very useful, but we should
> find better way to seek it (e.g. explicit polls) than encouraging users
> to post their feedback to -devel.

I manage packages in Debian. If you want me to stop doing that please
exress it more clearly.

--
Stanislav


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Old 04-03-2011, 01:50 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 04:42:11PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> I understand that you are in a position that forces you to think about
> public relations and such, but if I were a DD I would be more happy if
> DPL was a bit more focused on real problems.

Non sequitur: the fact that I'm participating into this sub-thread does
not imply I'm not focusing on (other) "real problems".

> I manage packages in Debian. If you want me to stop doing that please
> exress it more clearly.

Non sequitur again: I've said nothing about the packages you're
managing.

You're right when you say -devel is not moderated, but that also gives
the liberty to all the list participants, including myself, to comment
when they see usage patterns that they do not think will further the
goals of the list. And I'm sorry, but when I read comments like "if you
do $foo I'll stop using Debian", I can't help thinking (and sometime
commenting) that those comments are not helping pursuing a technical
discussion.

As the rest of this subthread is not helping either, I stop here and
also apologize with the other readers for the noise.

Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 04-03-2011, 04:08 PM
Fernando Lemos
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 5:11 AM, martin f krafft <madduck@debian.org> wrote:
[...]
> last I checked, for instance, it was not possible to hook up two
> network cards with DHCP.
[...]

Hmmm I do have two network cards and they both get IP addresses with
DHCP as I would expect (when they both are enabled).

Anyways, I don't think NM is the right solution for all proposed use
cases right now for a number of reasons:

* It doesn't have a good command-line interface

* It probably can't do some of the more complex yet common setups
possible with ifupdown, guessnet and friends

* NM was built by the Gnome community and their goals are a lot
different from ours

Nevertheless, I do believe something like NM is probably the way to
go, as it is a cleaner and more controlled event-oriented design
compared to a collection of all sort of scripts. It's seems to be the
right way to do it, even if you don't agree with the particular
implementation.

Regards,


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Old 04-03-2011, 05:32 PM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 03:50:36PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 04:42:11PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote:
> > I understand that you are in a position that forces you to think about
> > public relations and such, but if I were a DD I would be more happy if
> > DPL was a bit more focused on real problems.
>
> Non sequitur: the fact that I'm participating into this sub-thread does
> not imply I'm not focusing on (other) "real problems".

Then it means that my and your understanding of which problems are
real and which are not differs very much, as, for instance, I would
not advise users to refrain from expressing their opinions on various
"technical suggestions" on d-d list just in a fear of flood.

> > I manage packages in Debian. If you want me to stop doing that please
> > exress it more clearly.
>
> Non sequitur again: I've said nothing about the packages you're
> managing.

You stressed too much on my role as a mere user, that is why I brought
this point to your attention. I thought it was obvious from the context.

> You're right when you say -devel is not moderated, but that also
> gives the liberty to all the list participants, including myself, to
> comment when they see usage patterns that they do not think will
> further the goals of the list.

Of course. Nobody even tried to take this liberty away from you or to
disrespect it.

> And I'm sorry, but when I read comments like "if you do $foo I'll
> stop using Debian", I can't help thinking (and sometime commenting)
> that those comments are not helping pursuing a technical discussion.

Analogously, when I see such "great" technical suggestions as
replacing ifupdown on default installs with network-manager, I can't
help thinking (and sometimes commenting) that if this trend continues,
then at some point in future I may face a painful decision to abandon
the distribution that I continuously used for more than a decade and
to which I contributed.

PS: And there was a technical part in that my post you replied first.
You just skipped it.

--
Stanislav


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Sun Apr 3 19:30:02 2011
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Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GCC 4.6.0
References: <20110402221112.2101b4c1@gentoo.org> <pan.2011.04.03.05.50.32@cox.net> <20110403041923.51ea816d@gentoo.org> <BANLkTim17qeC6DLMfZ5NZpSQc4KrRw6Zpg@mail.gmail.co m> <4D98A0DA.1000000@avtomatika.com>
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Branko Badrljica schrieb:
> 2. Is there any info on gcc version that will support -march=Bulldozer ?
> I have googled a couple of gcc-related posts about optimizing for this
> CPU architecture intricacies and I have hoped to see support for it in
> 4.6... Is this stuff still in early development or is it just waiting
> for AMD to ship the chips due to some kind of NDA ?

gcc-4.6.0 adds targets for two new AMD CPU families, bdver1 and btver1.
It is all public, both the mailing list posts leading to the inclusion
and gcc/config/i386/i386.c

The gcc manpage was not updated, I think maybe by mistake.


Best regards,
Chi-Thanh Christopher Nguyen
 
Old 04-03-2011, 05:56 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

Le dimanche 03 avril 2011 * 21:32 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> Analogously, when I see such "great" technical suggestions as
> replacing ifupdown on default installs with network-manager, I can't
> help thinking (and sometimes commenting) that if this trend continues,
> then at some point in future I may face a painful decision to abandon
> the distribution that I continuously used for more than a decade and
> to which I contributed.

May I suggest that you install a squeeze system with the desktop task,
with a simple DHCP network configuration? You will see that your network
is no longer managed by ifupdown. So we’re talking about something that
has partly already happened, and AFAICT the world hasn’t fallen apart.

So far your only contribution to the discussion has been “If this
happens, I will use another distribution.” Fine. But could you explain
why we would care? I should probably remind you that Debian is, at
first, a do-o-cracy, so if you’re not interested into fixing things
yourself or at least giving constructive criticism, please let other
people dream of other technical solutions that they might actually end
up improving the state of our network stack (which is, in case you
haven’t noticed, absolutely disastrous).

--
.'`.
: :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know
`. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.”
`- -- J???rg Schilling


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Old 04-03-2011, 08:18 PM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 11:26:20PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le dimanche 03 avril 2011 * 21:32 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> > Analogously, when I see such "great" technical suggestions as
> > replacing ifupdown on default installs with network-manager, I can't
> > help thinking (and sometimes commenting) that if this trend continues,
> > then at some point in future I may face a painful decision to abandon
> > the distribution that I continuously used for more than a decade and
> > to which I contributed.
>
> May I suggest that you install a squeeze system with the desktop task,
> with a simple DHCP network configuration?

Why on earth would I do that? It does not match my needs at all. For
instance, this laptop sometimes connects to a couple of remote LANs
through VPNs, so that I have to set up routing in a not completely
trivial manner. On another site where I sometimes work, there is an
IPX network to which I have to connect to access the fileserver.
Occasionaly, I have to run another OS in a virtual machine on this
laptop for which I set up a bridge, etc.

I am not even mentioning any servers, as it is obvious that
network-manager is a "no-no" for them.

> You will see that your network is no longer managed by ifupdown. So
> we’re talking about something that has partly already happened, and
> AFAICT the world hasn’t fallen apart.

Well, I can only feel pity for the users who fell into this trap. Do
you know what is the first advise that is given to those users when
they eventually run into a problem with their network?

Right, deinstal network-manager!

> So far your only contribution to the discussion has been “If this
> happens, I will use another distribution.” Fine.

That is not exactly true, while I understand that certain people
prefer to see it like this.

> But could you explain why we would care? I should probably remind you
> that Debian is, at first, a do-o-cracy, so if you’re not interested
> into fixing things yourself

Yes, I usually fix bugs myself when I need it, if you mean this.
Try googling "Stanislav Maslovski +patch".

> or at least giving constructive criticism

If you read my mails without a prejudice you will notice it.

> please let other people dream of other technical solutions that they
> might actually end up improving the state of our network stack (which
> is, in case you haven’t noticed, absolutely disastrous).

If you mean the ifupdown-based configuration, then I cannot agree that
it is "really disastrous" (I would agree that the network-manager
approach is really disastrous, however) as at least in my cases (which
are not so trivial) ifupdown works okay (and if not then at least I
would know ways how to workaround problems).

--
Stanislav


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Old 04-03-2011, 09:11 PM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default network-manager as default? No! (was: Bits from the Release Team - Kicking off Wheezy)

Hello,

This reply went to debian-russian@ due to a mistake. Next doing a
bounce to d-d was another mistake, so if you receive this message
twice, I am sorry for that!

Still I feel that I cannot leave it unanswered, so here it goes.

On Sun, Apr 03, 2011 at 11:26:20PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le dimanche 03 avril 2011 * 21:32 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit :
> > Analogously, when I see such "great" technical suggestions as
> > replacing ifupdown on default installs with network-manager, I can't
> > help thinking (and sometimes commenting) that if this trend continues,
> > then at some point in future I may face a painful decision to abandon
> > the distribution that I continuously used for more than a decade and
> > to which I contributed.
>
> May I suggest that you install a squeeze system with the desktop task,
> with a simple DHCP network configuration?

Why on earth would I do that? It does not match my needs at all. For
instance, this laptop sometimes connects to a couple of remote LANs
through VPNs, so that I have to set up routing in a not completely
trivial manner. On another site where I sometimes work, there is an
IPX network to which I have to connect to access the fileserver.
Occasionaly, I have to run another OS in a virtual machine on this
laptop for which I set up a bridge, etc.

I am not even mentioning any servers, as it is obvious that
network-manager is a "no-no" for them.

> You will see that your network is no longer managed by ifupdown. So
> we’re talking about something that has partly already happened, and
> AFAICT the world hasn’t fallen apart.

Well, I can only feel pity for the users who fell into this trap. Do
you know what is the first advise that is given to those users when
they eventually run into a problem with their network?

Right, deinstal network-manager!

> So far your only contribution to the discussion has been “If this
> happens, I will use another distribution.” Fine.

That is not exactly true, while I understand that certain people
prefer to see it like this.

> But could you explain why we would care? I should probably remind you
> that Debian is, at first, a do-o-cracy, so if you’re not interested
> into fixing things yourself

Yes, I usually fix bugs myself when I need it, if you mean this.
Try googling "Stanislav Maslovski +patch".

> or at least giving constructive criticism

If you read my mails without a prejudice you will notice it.

> please let other people dream of other technical solutions that they
> might actually end up improving the state of our network stack (which
> is, in case you haven’t noticed, absolutely disastrous).

If you mean the ifupdown-based configuration, then I cannot agree that
it is "really disastrous" (I would agree that the network-manager
approach is really disastrous, however) as at least in my cases (which
are not so trivial) ifupdown works okay (and if not then at least I
would know ways how to workaround problems).

--
Stanislav


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