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Old 03-03-2011, 07:27 AM
Andreas Tille
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

Hi,

as I explained on Debian Med list[1] the existence of a desktop file is
nearly as relevant as a manpage for a good user experience for users who
are not that addicted to the command line as most of us are. I have not
made any stats how many packages with applications which deserve a
desktop file to show up in UIs implementing the freedesktop.org
specification but I think I'm not wrong if I roughly estimate it with
"below 50%". In cases like this a lintian check has leaded to
interesting results (see "missing manpage"). While I'm not a lintian
expert I'd consider the following criterion as reasonable for a check

* package has a file in /usr/bin
* package name does not match '^lib' or '-doc$'
* package has dependencies from "typical" libraries for
freedesktop.org implementing interfaces which are for instance
- libgnome2-0
- libkdeui5
- libxfce4ui-1-0
- libgtk-3-0
- libqtgui4
- ...
Please excuse if my choice of the libraries is not optimal - I'm
not an expert in this field but I hope you get the idea.
* No file /usr/share/applications/*.desktop in the package

If all these criterions are fullfilled a lintian warning about a missing
desktop file could (should (!) IMHO) be issued.

What do you think?

Kind regards

Andreas.

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-med/2011/03/msg00025.html

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Old 03-03-2011, 09:18 AM
Neil Williams
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:27:53 +0100
Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> wrote:

> as I explained on Debian Med list[1] the existence of a desktop file is
> nearly as relevant as a manpage for a good user experience for users who
> are not that addicted to the command line as most of us are. I have not
> made any stats how many packages with applications which deserve a
> desktop file to show up in UIs implementing the freedesktop.org
> specification but I think I'm not wrong if I roughly estimate it with
> "below 50%". In cases like this a lintian check has leaded to
> interesting results (see "missing manpage"). While I'm not a lintian
> expert I'd consider the following criterion as reasonable for a check
>
> * package has a file in /usr/bin
> * package name does not match '^lib' or '-doc$'
> * package has dependencies from "typical" libraries for
> freedesktop.org implementing interfaces which are for instance
> - libgnome2-0
> - libkdeui5
> - libxfce4ui-1-0
> - libgtk-3-0
> - libqtgui4
> - ...
> Please excuse if my choice of the libraries is not optimal - I'm
> not an expert in this field but I hope you get the idea.
> * No file /usr/share/applications/*.desktop in the package
>
> If all these criterions are fullfilled a lintian warning about a missing
> desktop file could (should (!) IMHO) be issued.

What happened to the idea that debian/menu files can be converted to
desktop files, maybe not during package build but as a tool for
maintainers?

Do we have any idea how many packages would trigger this new check?
(and how many of those do have debian/menu files?)

My particular concern is that debian/menu is not as easily translatable
as desktop files. The "title" displayed in whatever menu is used should
always be translatable IMHO.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 03-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Andreas Tille
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 10:18:58AM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
>
> What happened to the idea that debian/menu files can be converted to
> desktop files, maybe not during package build but as a tool for
> maintainers?

The idea is as good as its implementation proceeds. :-)
IMHO a tool for maintainers would be appropriate for this problem.

Regarding the lintian check the criterion

menu-file-but-no-desktop-file

could make sense as well.

> Do we have any idea how many packages would trigger this new check?
> (and how many of those do have debian/menu files?)

I have no idea about both numbers. I just have noticed that several
packages in Debian Med maintenance are lacking a desktop file even if
they would deserve one. Charles Plessy some years ago was quite active
in providing those files. I assume that other fields might have similar
coverage of desktop files.

> My particular concern is that debian/menu is not as easily translatable
> as desktop files. The "title" displayed in whatever menu is used should
> always be translatable IMHO.

Yes. I fully agree. This is IMHO the strongest reason why I do not
believe in automatic conversion menu -> desktop.

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
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Old 03-03-2011, 01:36 PM
Ben Hutchings
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, 2011-03-03 at 14:46 +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 10:18:58AM +0000, Neil Williams wrote:
> >
> > What happened to the idea that debian/menu files can be converted to
> > desktop files, maybe not during package build but as a tool for
> > maintainers?
>
> The idea is as good as its implementation proceeds. :-)
> IMHO a tool for maintainers would be appropriate for this problem.
>
> Regarding the lintian check the criterion
>
> menu-file-but-no-desktop-file
>
> could make sense as well.
[...]

I think it's crazy to expect maintainers to provide both menu and
desktop files for everything. That information should be provided once
only, in whichever format is the more expressive (I think that would be
desktop files, possibly with some Debian-specific extensions). Triggers
and per-WM hooks should take care of any conversion required at
installation time. Let's make that a release goal for wheezy instead of
perpetuating these parallel menu systems.

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse.
 
Old 03-03-2011, 02:17 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 02:36:43PM +0000, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> I think it's crazy to expect maintainers to provide both menu and
> desktop files for everything. That information should be provided once
> only, in whichever format is the more expressive (I think that would be
> desktop files, possibly with some Debian-specific extensions). Triggers
> and per-WM hooks should take care of any conversion required at
> installation time. Let's make that a release goal for wheezy instead of
> perpetuating these parallel menu systems.

ACK on the de-duplication (although I don't know whether they are in
fact more expressive than current Debian menu files). Another argument
for desktop files are that we have seen initiatives (e.g. AppStream)
which are going to rely on desktop files to identify common cross-distro
components. Pushing for desktop files, in collaboration with our
upstream, would also be a way of being good citizens helping with their
diffusion.

It doesn't seem to me that your proposal of making it a release goal for
Wheezy is incompatible with Andreas' proposal. Bottom line: a lintian
check would be a first useful step (the heuristic is clearly more
debatable, but I'm no condition to propose one which is better than the
one proposed by Andreas).

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Capossela .......| ..: |.......... -- C. Adams
 
Old 03-03-2011, 02:20 PM
Sune Vuorela
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On 2011-03-03, Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> wrote:
> I think it's crazy to expect maintainers to provide both menu and
> desktop files for everything. That information should be provided once
> only, in whichever format is the more expressive (I think that would be
> desktop files, possibly with some Debian-specific extensions). Triggers

my impression is that they express the same. there is a difference in
the categories (sections) that doesn't make it fully possible to
map completely in any direction.

for example in games, in debian menu system we have and Games/Action,
which contains actions and arcade games, and the FDO menu has ActionGame
and ArcadeGame
There can be found similar examples for 'the other way'

There is a desktop2menu script in
devscript that tries to do the conversion as good as possible,

> and per-WM hooks should take care of any conversion required at
> installation time. Let's make that a release goal for wheezy instead of
> perpetuating these parallel menu systems.

Down with the debian menu! Long live the fdo menu.

(isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
simply killing the debian menu)

/Sune


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Old 03-03-2011, 03:12 PM
Emilio Pozuelo Monfort
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On 03/03/11 15:17, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> It doesn't seem to me that your proposal of making it a release goal for
> Wheezy is incompatible with Andreas' proposal. Bottom line: a lintian
> check would be a first useful step (the heuristic is clearly more
> debatable, but I'm no condition to propose one which is better than the
> one proposed by Andreas).

Not sure if somebody has proposed it or not, but another heuristic would be
whether there is a debian menu file but not a desktop file.

Not saying it's better than Andreas' proposal... just another option.

Emilio


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Old 03-03-2011, 04:07 PM
Russ Allbery
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org> writes:

> Not sure if somebody has proposed it or not, but another heuristic would
> be whether there is a debian menu file but not a desktop file.

Lintian intentionally doesn't do this because the Debian maintainers of
the desktop systems in Debian didn't want lots of desktop entries for
applications without a GUI, which often currently have menu entries.

--
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:09 PM
Russ Allbery
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> writes:

> ACK on the de-duplication (although I don't know whether they are in
> fact more expressive than current Debian menu files).

Desktop files are in general more expressive than menu files, and
remaining missing features could be fairly easily added, I think.

> It doesn't seem to me that your proposal of making it a release goal for
> Wheezy is incompatible with Andreas' proposal.

The main thing that has to happen to replace menu files with desktop files
is to add an implementation of generation of menus from desktop files for
those window managers and other menu clients that have Debian menu
implementations but don't natively support desktop files. Otherwise, we
have a regression in quality of menus for those applications.

Last time we discussed this, fvwm2 was raised as a major example.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Old 03-03-2011, 09:01 PM
Christoph Egger
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> writes:
> (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
> simply killing the debian menu)

Last time I checked fluxbox and awesome where both debian menu only as
well.

Regards

Christoph
 

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