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Old 03-03-2011, 09:56 PM
Ben Hutchings
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 09:07:52AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Emilio Pozuelo Monfort <pochu@debian.org> writes:
>
> > Not sure if somebody has proposed it or not, but another heuristic would
> > be whether there is a debian menu file but not a desktop file.
>
> Lintian intentionally doesn't do this because the Debian maintainers of
> the desktop systems in Debian didn't want lots of desktop entries for
> applications without a GUI, which often currently have menu entries.

Surely they can filter out entries with Terminal: true?

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
- Albert Camus


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Old 03-03-2011, 10:00 PM
Sune Vuorela
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On 2011-03-03, Christoph Egger <christoph@debian.org> wrote:
> --=-=-=
>
> Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> writes:
>> (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
>> simply killing the debian menu)
>
> Last time I checked fluxbox and awesome where both debian menu only as
> well.

a quick search on google seems to tell that awesome does have xdg menu
support.

and another google search seems to tell about
http://code.google.com/p/fluxbox-xdg-menu/

/Sune


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Old 03-03-2011, 10:31 PM
Sean Finney
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, 2011-03-03 at 23:01 +0100, Christoph Egger wrote:
> Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> writes:
> > (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
> > simply killing the debian menu)
>
> Last time I checked fluxbox and awesome where both debian menu only as
> well.

instead of letting the tail wag the dog then with menu2desktop, wouldn't
it be better to cater to these WM's/DE's by providing a desktop2menu?
Still would feel like adding more layers where they should be removed
though...
 
Old 03-04-2011, 04:27 AM
Manoj Srivastava
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, Mar 03 2011, Sune Vuorela wrote:

> On 2011-03-03, Ben Hutchings <ben@decadent.org.uk> wrote:

>> and per-WM hooks should take care of any conversion required at
>> installation time. Let's make that a release goal for wheezy instead of
>> perpetuating these parallel menu systems.

> Down with the debian menu! Long live the fdo menu.

> (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
> simply killing the debian menu)

And fvwm,

manoj

--
Mirrors should reflect a little before throwing back images. Jean
Cocteau
Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@acm.org> <http://www.golden-gryphon.com/>
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:02 AM
Andreas Tille
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 09:27:07PM -0800, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
> > simply killing the debian menu)
>
> And fvwm,

I was a fan of fvwm for years and I even have configured my xfce with
fvwm keycodes to have the same handling. However, if you ask me the
typical fvwm user (if something like this exists at all) is most
probably ignoring the menu and has rather configured his environment
to fire up applications via key codes or fires up an xterm and types
the command for an application. So while I do not really want to
loose fvwm menu in case there might be some constraints in a potential
to be written desktop2menu I would not really regard this issue as
urgent enough to stop what we would gain with overall proper desktop
files.

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de


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Old 03-04-2011, 07:04 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

Le jeudi 03 mars 2011 * 22:56 +0000, Ben Hutchings a écrit :
> > Lintian intentionally doesn't do this because the Debian maintainers of
> > the desktop systems in Debian didn't want lots of desktop entries for
> > applications without a GUI, which often currently have menu entries.
>
> Surely they can filter out entries with Terminal: true?

Yeah sure, and leave users without the possibility to add a launcher for
a terminal application?

The correct solution is to use NoDisplay=true for such applications.
This way they appear in the menu editor and can be enabled, but are not
displayed in the menu by default.

--
.'`.
: :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know
`. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.”
`- -- J???rg Schilling


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Old 03-04-2011, 08:02 AM
Neil Williams
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Fri, 04 Mar 2011 00:31:13 +0100
Sean Finney <seanius@debian.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-03-03 at 23:01 +0100, Christoph Egger wrote:
> > Sune Vuorela <nospam@vuorela.dk> writes:
> > > (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
> > > simply killing the debian menu)
> >
> > Last time I checked fluxbox and awesome where both debian menu only as
> > well.
>
> instead of letting the tail wag the dog then with menu2desktop, wouldn't
> it be better to cater to these WM's/DE's by providing a desktop2menu?
> Still would feel like adding more layers where they should be removed
> though...

... and leave any non-English speakers without any translation support for the key texts which tell the user what the app behind the menu actually does? Nice. Lots of menu files don't even bother with an icon.

Why is it acceptable for window managers to use a menu which cannot support translation? Why cater to such buggy software? Effectively, these window managers are ignoring LC_ALL, LANGUAGE and LANG by not using a menuing system capable of supporting translation. Why should Debian put up with that any longer?

It's arguably more work to make 'menu' support translation, and then implement that in all packages, than for these window managers to be converted to use the existing desktop files. At least desktop files are available in distributions other than Debian.

There are a lot more translated desktop files than there are applications with menu files but no desktop files. As all menu files are untranslatable, any change to these WM's should be to require the use of desktop files on the basis that at least some of the title strings will already be translated in the desktop files.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
 
Old 03-04-2011, 08:10 AM
Sune Vuorela
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On 2011-03-04, Manoj Srivastava <srivasta@ieee.org> wrote:
>> (isn't it only icewm and ratpoison and blackbox we might 'lose' by
>> simply killing the debian menu)
>
> And fvwm,

According to the internets, there is a fvwm-xdg-menu python script that
is supposed to make the xdg/fdo menu in a format that fvwm can handle.

/Sune


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Old 03-04-2011, 09:39 AM
Charles Plessy
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

Le Fri, Mar 04, 2011 at 09:02:39AM +0000, Neil Williams a crit :
>
> Why is it acceptable for window managers to use a menu which cannot support
> translation?

Actually it does : http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2008/05/msg00011.html

This said, I think that translating the Debian menu is a terrible waste, since
either the equivalent Desktop entries are either already translated, or if they
are not, then the translator's work on the Debian menu entry is not directly
forwardable upstream.

As suggested in this thread an earlier, a possible compromise between the
current duplication of work (two menu files) and dropping completely the Debian
menu system would be to modify it to use natively Desktop menu entries. There is
already a wiki page that lists similarities and differences:

http://wiki.debian.org/Proposals/DebianMenuUsingDesktopEntries

That would require a C programmer to work on the Debian menu system. Perhaps it
could be a project for the Google Summer of Code ? If we go that direction, I
volunteer to help for the huge transition.

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Old 03-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Ben Hutchings
 
Default Lintian check for missing desktop files?

On Fri, 2011-03-04 at 09:04 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le jeudi 03 mars 2011 22:56 +0000, Ben Hutchings a crit :
> > > Lintian intentionally doesn't do this because the Debian maintainers of
> > > the desktop systems in Debian didn't want lots of desktop entries for
> > > applications without a GUI, which often currently have menu entries.
> >
> > Surely they can filter out entries with Terminal: true?
>
> Yeah sure, and leave users without the possibility to add a launcher for
> a terminal application?

You can surely distinguish user-added launchers from package-provided
launchers.

> The correct solution is to use NoDisplay=true for such applications.
> This way they appear in the menu editor and can be enabled, but are not
> displayed in the menu by default.

Could you arrange to interpret Terminal=true as NoDisplay=true, then?
I'm just thinking that this policy of excluding terminal applications
may not be appropriate for every desktop environment / window manager.
(In particular, those without a menu editor that would allow overriding
it.)

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse.
 

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