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Old 10-27-2010, 12:46 PM
Pedro Paulo Argolo
 
Default debian can be better

Debian
needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards
Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical
user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: (
In this case I think
Debian should look a little closer to Ubuntu, referring to usability.
You can maintain a perfectly usable OS for both beginners and advanced
users of Linux technology, without changing the philosophy course
Debian.
Debian should improve translation linguas.Quando used for
other help topics were all in English! Despite the selected language is
Portuguese from Brazil! Project developers should use social networks to
probe the needs of Debian users (Masters or beginners).Thank you for All
 
Old 10-27-2010, 02:01 PM
"Jesús M. Navarro"
 
Default debian can be better

Hi, Pedro Paolo:

On Wednesday 27 October 2010 14:46:08 Pedro Paulo Argolo wrote:
> Debian
> needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards
> Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical
> user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: (

You should ask for that to Nvidia. You can bet the day Nvidia produces proper
open source drivers will be the day Debian will be able to properly support
them.

Of course you can think the Ubuntu way is the proper one and Debian's[1] is
not but, of course too, you are absolutly free to use Ubuntu instead of
Debian.

Cheers.

[1] http://www.debian.org/social_contract


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Old 10-27-2010, 09:32 PM
Russell Coker
 
Default debian can be better

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo <jamer.jamer@hotmail.com> wrote:
> needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards
> Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical
> user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: (

The change from "nv" to "nouveau" was a good improvement for my main system
(Thinkpad T61), 2D graphics performance improved noticeably although I do
occasionally get transient corrupted bitmaps. Debian is dedicated to free
software (which precludes the non-free NVidia driver from being in main) and I
don't want the security risk of running binary-only software on my important
systems.

I am not aware of anything that stops a Debian user from using a binary-only
Xorg driver.

Intel video cards work really well in my experience, performance is great
including on 3D graphics with games such as Warzone 2100, Super Tux Carts, and
Tux Racer. Given a choice I'd just buy a system with Intel graphics.

> In this case I think
> Debian should look a little closer to Ubuntu, referring to usability.
> You can maintain a perfectly usable OS for both beginners and advanced
> users of Linux technology, without changing the philosophy course
> Debian.

Ubuntu aren't as much into free software.

Speaking for myself I'm more than happy for people who want Debian with non-
free software to use Ubuntu. I think that they are doing a great job of
making a Debian-derived distribution that supports non-free software and is
easy to use.

> Debian should improve translation linguas.Quando used for
> other help topics were all in English! Despite the selected language is
> Portuguese from Brazil!

Christian PERRIER <bubulle@debian.org>

It seems that you are well qualified to help with that. Christian seems to be
one of the leaders of the Debian translation project, I suggest that you
contact him off-list to discover how you can help improve this.

> Project developers should use social networks to
> probe the needs of Debian users (Masters or beginners).Thank you for All

Sorry, I don't have time for that, I don't even have enough time to do as much
development work for Debian as I wish. Now if you could find some funding for
me so I could cease some of my paid work then things would change...

--
russell@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog


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Old 10-27-2010, 09:48 PM
Patrick Matthäi
 
Default debian can be better

Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker:
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo <jamer.jamer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards
>> Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical
>> user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: (
>
> The change from "nv" to "nouveau" was a good improvement for my main system
> (Thinkpad T61), 2D graphics performance improved noticeably although I do
> occasionally get transient corrupted bitmaps. Debian is dedicated to free
> software (which precludes the non-free NVidia driver from being in main) and I
> don't want the security risk of running binary-only software on my important
> systems.

Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special
features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc.
nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful
for powerful desktop users.

On the ATI/AMD side, the free radeon driver does a quite good job, but
since it uses KMS you have to disable KMS to get some performance
(radeon+KMS = quite slow)

The security side:
Sure, security issues could be "easily" fixed with open drivers, but if
I remember right, the only security issue with a closed-source prop. X11
video driver was 2-3 years ago with the nvidia one. And if there are
some new sec. issues, you can still switch.

>
> I am not aware of anything that stops a Debian user from using a binary-only
> Xorg driver.

Not supported by us, officialy, they are also not on our installation
cds (users have to activate non-free by themselve).

>
> Intel video cards work really well in my experience, performance is great
> including on 3D graphics with games such as Warzone 2100, Super Tux Carts, and
> Tux Racer. Given a choice I'd just buy a system with Intel graphics.

It may be great with such "historic" games, but don't try to play modern
games with intel HW

>
>> In this case I think
>> Debian should look a little closer to Ubuntu, referring to usability.
>> You can maintain a perfectly usable OS for both beginners and advanced
>> users of Linux technology, without changing the philosophy course
>> Debian.
>
> Ubuntu aren't as much into free software.

ACK.

>
> Speaking for myself I'm more than happy for people who want Debian with non-
> free software to use Ubuntu. I think that they are doing a great job of
> making a Debian-derived distribution that supports non-free software and is
> easy to use.

I do not agree with you at all, but mostly because of some "religion"
reasons
Anyway for squeeze there will be (if nothing have been changed again) an
image with some non-free enabled (like firmware foo).


--
/*
Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
Patrick Matthäi
GNU/Linux Debian Developer

E-Mail: pmatthaei@debian.org
patrick@linux-dev.org

Comment:
Always if we think we are right,
we were maybe wrong.
*/
 
Old 10-27-2010, 10:01 PM
Darren Salt
 
Default debian can be better

I demand that Patrick Matthäi may or may not have written...

> Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker:
>> On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo <jamer.jamer@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards
>>> Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical
>>> user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: (
[snip]
> On the ATI/AMD side, the free radeon driver does a quite good job, but
> since it uses KMS you have to disable KMS to get some performance
> (radeon+KMS = quite slow)

... but use a newer kernel and mesa 7.9 (libdrm in squeeze is new enough),
and things will be quite a lot better, at least with the r300 driver. (Also,
setting RADEON_HYPERZ=1 for 3D-using games is likely to improve things a
little; just don't set it for everything.)

[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux at youmustbejoking | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| using Debian GNU/Linux | or ds ,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | back!
| + RIPA NOTICE: NO CONSENT GIVEN FOR INTERCEPTION OF MESSAGE TRANSMISSION

Censorship is something ####### #### I do ### like!


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Old 10-27-2010, 10:05 PM
Vincent Bernat
 
Default debian can be better

OoO La nuit ayant déjà recouvert d'encre ce jour du mercredi 27 octobre
2010, vers 23:48, Patrick Matthäi <pmatthaei@debian.org> disait*:

> Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special
> features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc.
> nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful
> for powerful desktop users.

nouveau supports 2D acceleration including compositing and Xvideo
acceleration. I don't see what may be missing for everyday desktop
use. It is even better than the nvidia driver because of its perfect
support of xrandr.
--
printk("autofs: Out of inode numbers -- what the heck did you do??
");
2.0.38 /usr/src/linux/fs/autofs/root.c
 
Old 10-27-2010, 10:08 PM
Patrick Matthäi
 
Default debian can be better

Am 28.10.2010 00:05, schrieb Vincent Bernat:
> OoO La nuit ayant déjà recouvert d'encre ce jour du mercredi 27 octobre
> 2010, vers 23:48, Patrick Matthäi <pmatthaei@debian.org> disait :
>
>> Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special
>> features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc.
>> nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful
>> for powerful desktop users.
>
> nouveau supports 2D acceleration including compositing and Xvideo
> acceleration. I don't see what may be missing for everyday desktop
> use. It is even better than the nvidia driver because of its perfect
> support of xrandr.

I am not nvidia'ish, but supporting 2D/3D acceleration is a *must have*
in my eyes since many years. The performance of nouveau just sucks. Yeah
if you do not need it, okay..

--
/*
Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
Patrick Matthäi
GNU/Linux Debian Developer

E-Mail: pmatthaei@debian.org
patrick@linux-dev.org

Comment:
Always if we think we are right,
we were maybe wrong.
*/
 
Old 10-27-2010, 11:57 PM
Ivan Jager
 
Default debian can be better

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Patrick Matthäi wrote:

Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker:

On Wed, 27 Oct 2010, Pedro Paulo Argolo <jamer.jamer@hotmail.com> wrote:

needs better support video cards from Nvidia and ATI video boards
Intel. I had configuration problems because of that, and for a typical
user is a very embarrassing situation. ~: (


The change from "nv" to "nouveau" was a good improvement for my main system
(Thinkpad T61), 2D graphics performance improved noticeably although I do
occasionally get transient corrupted bitmaps. Debian is dedicated to free
software (which precludes the non-free NVidia driver from being in main) and I
don't want the security risk of running binary-only software on my important
systems.


Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special
features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc.
nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful
for powerful desktop users.


So, buy a graphics card that supports the features you want rather than
one that doesn't. That's how the free market works. It is unfortunate when
you inherit hardware from others or otherwise don't have a choice in the
matter, but you get what you pay for.


I was also rather embarrassed when I bought a GeForce 2 back in 2002 and
discovered that Nvidia's idea of "source code" was a small bit of C to
interface to a binary blob. I'm boycotting them until they either provide
documentation or release a proper open source driver, and I encourage you
all to do the same. If you already own an Nvidia card, please poke them
about it, because they don't think enough people care.


ATI only partially misses out in that I only buy their hardware that is
old enough to be supported by DRI.



I am not aware of anything that stops a Debian user from using a binary-only
Xorg driver.


Not supported by us, officialy, they are also not on our installation
cds (users have to activate non-free by themselve).


Does Ubuntu or any other distro claim to support it? If you find a bug it
doesn't seem like they could do much more than tell you to take it up with
the manufacturer. It's not like anyone other than nvidia can support their
drivers, so if they don't want to support your favorite distro, that's up
to them to decide, and up to you to care about.


But, yes, it is unfortunate when you inherit hardware that is only
supported by closed source drivers/X servers. When will Debian start
supporting windows graphics drivers so I can use my 3Dlabs cards?
(Honestly, I would be rather scared if they did.)


Ivan
 
Old 10-27-2010, 11:58 PM
Russell Coker
 
Default debian can be better

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010, Patrick Matthäi <pmatthaei@debian.org> wrote:
> Most desktop users also want to have some 2D/3D performance, or special
> features like tv out, xvideo acceleration etc etc.
> nouveau is a good replacement for nv, but still far away of being useful
> for powerful desktop users.

I use nouveau every day for all my work. I think that's conclusive proof that
it's perfectly adequate for a large subset of "powerful desktop users". Not
to mention the less "powerful" desktop users who use their computers for
nothing but email, wordprocessing, and the occasional web browsing. My
parents still use a 32bit Celeron based system because it simply provides all
the compute power that they need. Debian just works for them.

> The security side:
> Sure, security issues could be "easily" fixed with open drivers, but if
> I remember right, the only security issue with a closed-source prop. X11
> video driver was 2-3 years ago with the nvidia one. And if there are
> some new sec. issues, you can still switch.

Sure you could switch if you knew about such issues. Of course the problem
with security issues is that they get exploited for some time before people
know about them.

> > I am not aware of anything that stops a Debian user from using a
> > binary-only Xorg driver.
>
> Not supported by us, officialy, they are also not on our installation
> cds (users have to activate non-free by themselve).

That doesn't seem overly difficult.

> > Intel video cards work really well in my experience, performance is great
> > including on 3D graphics with games such as Warzone 2100, Super Tux
> > Carts, and Tux Racer. Given a choice I'd just buy a system with Intel
> > graphics.
>
> It may be great with such "historic" games, but don't try to play modern
> games with intel HW

The version of Super Tux Carts in Squeeze is significantly different to the
one that was in Lenny. It appears to still be in very active development.
Warzone 2100 is being actively developed too (3.0 is in beta, Squeeze has the
old version). But really it's an issue of what games I like.

If you can cite a car racing or RTS game that requires more 3D performance
than an Intel card can deliver then I'll consider other options for my gaming
system. But until/unless that happens the Intel based gaming system I use is
just good enough - I can find other things to spend my spare cash on. The
system in question has an E2160 CPU which makes it's design over 3 years old,
the people who use such systems for running Windows probably want a hardware
upgrade just to run the GUI.

--
russell@coker.com.au
http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog


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Old 10-28-2010, 05:04 AM
Christian PERRIER
 
Default debian can be better

> > Debian should improve translation linguas.Quando used for
> > other help topics were all in English! Despite the selected language is
> > Portuguese from Brazil!
>
> Christian PERRIER <bubulle@debian.org>
>
> It seems that you are well qualified to help with that. Christian seems to be
> one of the leaders of the Debian translation project, I suggest that you
> contact him off-list to discover how you can help improve this.

Aha, I actually read the original message and pondered following
up...which I finally didn't (probably the "hey, you should do like
Ubuntu" prank just annoyed me, even if Pedro can't be blamed for this,
from an end user POV).

Even easier: get in touch with people from the Brazilian Portuguese
localization team (debian-l10n-portuguese@lists.debian.org....it is
actually used only for *Brazilian* Portuguese l10n work).

And contribute there.

Pedro, the pt_BR team is already doing a tremendous work in
translating many things (for instance, they are among the leaders for
translation of packages descriptions). Of course, you'll always find
something more that needs to be translated or adapted.....but, believe
me, the brazilian Debian community is among the most active ones I've
met. And the annual Debian conference might even end up in your
country in 2012, in case you would want to be involved even more.

So, as you see: there are certainly many things to improve. But just
telling "Debian should do this" or "Debian should do that" won't make
it happen. "Debian" is not a company, it's a collaborative project
with no dictator telling people what they should be working on.

So things are done when someone feels the need to do them.

Not to tell that user feedback is ignored. Of course, it is used and
we often appreciate getting it. It even often motivates people to work
on a specific feature. But don't expect that much abou tthings
happening because you ask for it...or you say they "should" be done..:-)

>
> > Project developers should use social networks to
> > probe the needs of Debian users (Masters or beginners).Thank you for All
>
> Sorry, I don't have time for that, I don't even have enough time to do as much
> development work for Debian as I wish. Now if you could find some funding for
> me so I could cease some of my paid work then things would change...


And many people will probably answer that, too. Also notice that many
Debian contributors have personal or philosophical issues with some
widespread social networks (even though many of us are present on some
of them).
 

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