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Old 10-28-2010, 11:37 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default debian can be better

Am 27.10.2010 23:32, schrieb Russell Coker:

Speaking for myself I'm more than happy for people who want Debian with non-
free software to use Ubuntu. I think that they are doing a great job of
making a Debian-derived distribution that supports non-free software and is
easy to use.


In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the
flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10
Maverick Meerkat.


I think Debian is fine the way it is. Dedicated to freedom, but not
bone-headed about it. I wish Nvidia and AMD/ATI would come to better
terms with the devs of all Linux distributions, but as long as I can
continue to take advantage of non-free where it's appropriate for me,
I'll be satisfied.



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Old 10-31-2010, 07:44 PM
Miles Bader
 
Default debian can be better

Mark Allums <mark@allums.com> writes:
> In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the
> flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10
> Maverick Meerkat.

Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...?

-Miles

--
Dictionary, n. A malevolent literary device for cramping the growth of
a language and making it hard and inelastic. This dictionary, however,
is a most useful work.


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Old 10-31-2010, 08:41 PM
Matthias Klumpp
 
Default debian can be better

On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 05:44:27 +0900, Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> wrote:
> Mark Allums <mark@allums.com> writes:
>> In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the
>> flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10
>> Maverick Meerkat.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...?
They don't use upstream components like the new GNOME3 notification system
(which is also used on KDE4), but patch all apps to use notify-osd as they
do for Kubuntu since their indicator-kde patches were rejected.
(This is just one example)
They moved window-controls to the left side without any appropriate
reason, ignonring the wishes of their community.
Also, they use Banshee and Tomboy, which results in including Mono to
their default install. (Okay, this is a disk-space problem, but also
"crazy")
And now they won't use GNOME3 GNOME-Shell as default but an own surface
specially designed for Netbooks as default desktop. (It will be changed to
match bigger screen size, but it's initial design was for Netbooks, so this
will become difficult)
We'll see if this way of doing things is successful. In my opinion, it's
not, but I might be wrong - this is what makes the Ubuntu case so
interesting! (And if they do wrong, they can always switch back)
Regards
Matthias Klumpp


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Old 10-31-2010, 08:44 PM
Michael Banck
 
Default debian can be better

On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 05:44:27AM +0900, Miles Bader wrote:
> Mark Allums <mark@allums.com> writes:
> > In my opinion, and at risk of starting a fruitless spiral into the
> > flames, I think Ubuntu have jumped on the crazy train with 10.10
> > Maverick Meerkat.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...?

Miles, you can lookup their release notes if you like, but this question
is really unappropriate for this list.


Thanks,

Michael


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Old 11-01-2010, 01:49 AM
Miles Bader
 
Default debian can be better

Michael Banck <mbanck@debian.org> writes:
>> Just out of curiosity, what changed with that version...?
>
> Miles, you can lookup their release notes if you like, but this question
> is really unappropriate for this list.

If such information is deemed too inflammatory, an off-list reply would
be cool too...

Thanks,

-Miles

--
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in foul.


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Old 11-01-2010, 05:46 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default debian can be better

Le dimanche 31 octobre 2010 Ă* 22:41 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a Ă©crit :
> Also, they use Banshee and Tomboy, which results in including Mono to
> their default install. (Okay, this is a disk-space problem, but also
> "crazy")

We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as
the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings.

> And now they won't use GNOME3 GNOME-Shell as default but an own surface
> specially designed for Netbooks as default desktop. (It will be changed to
> match bigger screen size, but it's initial design was for Netbooks, so this
> will become difficult)

Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than
on the “designed for netbooks” part.

--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone,
`- […] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling
 
Old 11-01-2010, 09:46 AM
Matthias Klumpp
 
Default debian can be better

First of all: Sorry, I didn't want to send this mail to the public list...

On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 07:46:27 +0100, Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>
wrote:
> Le dimanche 31 octobre 2010 Ă* 22:41 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a Ă©crit :
>> Also, they use Banshee and Tomboy, which results in including Mono to
>> their default install. (Okay, this is a disk-space problem, but also
>> "crazy")
>
> We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as
> the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings.
Also true, but I don't know how much more space the Mono bindings need
compared to the C++ bindings... This would be interesting to find out!

>> And now they won't use GNOME3 GNOME-Shell as default but an own surface
>> specially designed for Netbooks as default desktop. (It will be changed
>> to
>> match bigger screen size, but it's initial design was for Netbooks, so
>> this
>> will become difficult)
>
> Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than
> on the “designed for netbooks” part.
They say if a hardware does not meet the 3D-requirements, they will have a
fallback to the exiting GNOME-panel, which is the same as GNOME-Shell will
do, so I don't see much difference here.

To the overall topic ("debian can be better"): I see Ubuntu as some kind
of playground for new technologies. Debian should look at Ubuntu, and they
already do look at it, and use stuff which works on Ubuntu and matches the
Debian policy well. Debian is much more conservative than Ubuntu is, but if
some stuff Ubuntu uses turns out to be successful, Debian can use it too.

Regards
Matthias



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Old 11-01-2010, 10:29 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default debian can be better

Le lundi 01 novembre 2010 Ă* 11:46 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a Ă©crit :
> > We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale as
> > the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings.
> Also true, but I don't know how much more space the Mono bindings need
> compared to the C++ bindings... This would be interesting to find out!

You can find out for yourself:
Package: libgtk2.0-cil
Installed-Size: 2560

Package: libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a
Installed-Size: 5368

> > Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part than
> > on the “designed for netbooks” part.
> They say if a hardware does not meet the 3D-requirements, they will have a
> fallback to the exiting GNOME-panel, which is the same as GNOME-Shell will
> do, so I don't see much difference here.

I’m not worried about 3D, I said I’d be worried about compiz.

> To the overall topic ("debian can be better"): I see Ubuntu as some kind
> of playground for new technologies. Debian should look at Ubuntu, and they
> already do look at it, and use stuff which works on Ubuntu and matches the
> Debian policy well. Debian is much more conservative than Ubuntu is, but if
> some stuff Ubuntu uses turns out to be successful, Debian can use it too.

Please don’t tell Debian developers what they should do, unless you are
willing to do it yourself.

Cheers,
--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone,
`- […] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling
 
Old 11-01-2010, 10:59 AM
Matthias Klumpp
 
Default debian can be better

On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 12:29:33 +0100, Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>
wrote:
> Le lundi 01 novembre 2010 Ă* 11:46 +0100, Matthias Klumpp a Ă©crit :
>> > We do also for Tomboy, and this “space problem” is of similar scale
as
>> > the one we have for a pair of applications using C++ bindings.
>> Also true, but I don't know how much more space the Mono bindings need
>> compared to the C++ bindings... This would be interesting to find out!
>
> You can find out for yourself:
> Package: libgtk2.0-cil
> Installed-Size: 2560
>
> Package: libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a
> Installed-Size: 5368
Wow! Never mind the C++ bindings are that big! But if you take all Mono
dependencies Tomboy depends on into account, take about 21MB. (GNote takes
a little less..)

>> > Personally I would be more worried by the “relies on compiz” part
than
>> > on the “designed for netbooks” part.
>> They say if a hardware does not meet the 3D-requirements, they will
have
>> a
>> fallback to the exiting GNOME-panel, which is the same as GNOME-Shell
>> will
>> do, so I don't see much difference here.
>
> I’m not worried about 3D, I said I’d be worried about compiz.
Ah, okay... Why? (I haven't done anything with Compiz or Mutter/Clutter
yet, so I really can't say which one is actually better.)

>> To the overall topic ("debian can be better"): I see Ubuntu as some
kind
>> of playground for new technologies. Debian should look at Ubuntu, and
>> they
>> already do look at it, and use stuff which works on Ubuntu and matches
>> the
>> Debian policy well. Debian is much more conservative than Ubuntu is,
but
>> if
>> some stuff Ubuntu uses turns out to be successful, Debian can use it
too.
>
> Please don’t tell Debian developers what they should do, unless you are
> willing to do it yourself.
I don't want to tell anyone what he/she should do, but IMHO it is useful
to look at Ubuntu, as everything a Ubuntu release will be tested by lots of
different users. I already do this for my packages, but I'm not in a
position to decide anything for Debian. I can only write down my opinion on
a topic, which is _never_ intended to tell someone to do something, it's
just a comment. (And just my opinion.)
Kind regards
Matthias




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