FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Debian > Debian Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-17-2010, 02:42 PM
Noel David Torres Taño
 
Default Bug#597202: ITP: kstars-data-extra-tycho2 -- Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: "Noel David Torres Taño" <envite@rolamasao.org>


Actually kstars offer each user to download some data, from the net, which causes bandwith and disk waste (See #596007). I will package one of those datafiles (one of the catalogs) to avoid that, and I want to package the remaining afterwards.

* Package name : kstars-data-extra-tycho2
Version : 1.1r1
Upstream Author : Akarsh Simha, Jason Harris <kstars-devel@kde.org>
* URL : http://edu.kde.org/kstars/downloads/tycho2_mag_12.5-1.1.tar.bz2
* License : GPL
Programming Lang: N/A
Description : Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

This package contains the data of the Tycho 2 star catalog that kstars would otherwise offer the user to download. Installing this package avoids the need for the users to each one download the catalog for itself. It is configurable if you want the users to be unable to do those downloads.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20100917144208.19140.79125.reportbug@tochox.rolama sao.org">http://lists.debian.org/20100917144208.19140.79125.reportbug@tochox.rolama sao.org
 
Old 09-19-2010, 12:03 PM
Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña
 
Default Bug#597202: ITP: kstars-data-extra-tycho2 -- Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

Hi,

First of all, please first note there is an informal policy for Stars data
catalogues which is available in the 'stardata-common' package (more info at
http://alioth.debian.org/projects/stardata-common/). We already provide some
star data catalogues (Gliese and Yale which are both non-free) in Debian
and we should strive to follow the same rules for any star data catalogues
we provide.

> Actually kstars offer each user to download some data, from the net, which
> causes bandwith and disk waste (See #596007). I will package one of those
> datafiles (one of the catalogs) to avoid that, and I want to package the
> remaining afterwards.

If you are packaging datfile it would be best if they follow the policy above
so that other astronomy packages (stellarium, stardata, etc.) can use them.
This means using the original (unmodified) files and providing scripts/tools
(which probably the Kstars team has developed) to convert them into files
usable for other software.

> * Package name : kstars-data-extra-tycho2
> Version : 1.1r1
> Upstream Author : Akarsh Simha, Jason Harris <kstars-devel@kde.org>

The 'upstream authors' of the Tychos2 catalog are not some KDE developers
(with all my respect to their work). Please see
http://www.astro.ku.dk/~erik/Tycho-2/ From
http://www.astro.ku.dk/~erik/Tycho-2/Tenyears.eml the autors are E. Høg,
C. Fabricius, V.V. Makarov, S. Urban, T. Corbin, G. Wycoff, U. Bastian,
P. Schwekendiek, and A. Wicenec.

> * URL : http://edu.kde.org/kstars/downloads/tycho2_mag_12.5-1.1.tar.bz2

The URL for the upstream catalog is not correct. This is the URL for the
files distributed by KDE which are maybe *not* the original files.

> * License : GPL

This license is *not* the license the Tycho2 catalog was distributed with
10 years ago (8th february 2000). It might be worth clarifying with
Erik Høg, original author of the catalog from the Niels Bohr Institute
under which license this catalog can be distribued.

Please note that other catalogues distributed by international
organisations (ESA, NASA) have had a 'please do not modify these files'
strings attached and have thus fallen into non-free (see gliese and
yale catalogues).

> Programming Lang: N/A
> Description : Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

If the package provides the Tycho2 star data catalogue it should provide the
*original* catalogue as available in
http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/catalogs/tycho2.html and not a "pre-cooked" file
for kstars. If it provides a pre-cooked file for kstars then it should note
it.

As for the license, I do not agree with the license you set up for this
package. If you review http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/myqcat3?I/259/, the
Tychos star data catalogue files are certainly *not* GPL. There is no mention
to the license the catalog can be used with in the README file, and certainly
there is no mention to the GPL. As such, it can only be considered
'non-free'.

Actually, I believe that the fact that the catalog is not provided *within*
the kstars program is certainly because it is not considered free.

Please review the licensing status of the original data files before you make
an upload of this package to Debian.

If you are interested in astronomy packages, I encourage you to subscribe to
the stardata-common-devel mailing list to seek assistance on how to
(properly) package star data catalogues in Debian.

Regards

Javier


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20100919120303.GB9467@javifsp.no-ip.org">http://lists.debian.org/20100919120303.GB9467@javifsp.no-ip.org
 
Old 09-19-2010, 04:24 PM
Noel David Torres Taño
 
Default Bug#597202: ITP: kstars-data-extra-tycho2 -- Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

On Domingo 19 Septiembre 2010 13:03:04 Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña
escribió:
> Hi,
>
> First of all, please first note there is an informal policy for Stars data
> catalogues which is available in the 'stardata-common' package (more info
> at http://alioth.debian.org/projects/stardata-common/). We already provide
> some star data catalogues (Gliese and Yale which are both non-free) in
> Debian and we should strive to follow the same rules for any star data
> catalogues we provide.

I will read that, but I'm not trying to package stardata catalogs for use by
any program, but to package any kind of kstars' data (catalogs, images and DST
rules) for use within kstars. It would be a secondary goal to make the
catalogs in that set of nine datasets available to other applications,
moreover when they are already in the kstars data format.
>
> > Actually kstars offer each user to download some data, from the net,
> > which causes bandwith and disk waste (See #596007). I will package one
> > of those datafiles (one of the catalogs) to avoid that, and I want to
> > package the remaining afterwards.
>
> If you are packaging datfile it would be best if they follow the policy
> above so that other astronomy packages (stellarium, stardata, etc.) can
> use them. This means using the original (unmodified) files and providing
> scripts/tools (which probably the Kstars team has developed) to convert
> them into files usable for other software.

Would it be better to have users download "source" data catalogs and then
transforming them into "binary" useable datfiles? I thought that was the Gentoo
way, not Debian's. Anyway, I do not care at the moment on other programs. I
will help, if I can, and I undoubtlessy will accept any offered help in
packaging these nine dataset (not only catalogs) in any other way that allow
them to be used by other programs, but that is far out of my priority, which
is having kstars data users on the same computer to download and store kstars
data packages only once.
>
> > * Package name : kstars-data-extra-tycho2
> >
> > Version : 1.1r1
> > Upstream Author : Akarsh Simha, Jason Harris <kstars-devel@kde.org>
>
> The 'upstream authors' of the Tychos2 catalog are not some KDE
> developers (with all my respect to their work). Please see
> http://www.astro.ku.dk/~erik/Tycho-2/ From
> http://www.astro.ku.dk/~erik/Tycho-2/Tenyears.eml the autors are E.
> Høg, C. Fabricius, V.V. Makarov, S. Urban, T. Corbin, G. Wycoff, U.
> Bastian, P. Schwekendiek, and A. Wicenec.

True, but what I'm packaging is the kstars data file, not the original Tycho-2
catalog. The file I'm packaging has the authors I've expressed in the ITP ad
you can see in http://edu.kde.org/kstars/downloads/knewstuff.xml where other
datasets are tagged with other authors and licenses.
>
> > * URL :
> > http://edu.kde.org/kstars/downloads/tycho2_mag_12.5-1.1.tar.bz2
>
> The URL for the upstream catalog is not correct. This is the URL for
> the files distributed by KDE which are maybe *not* the original files.

But this is the file I'm packaging, as expressed above.
>
> > * License : GPL
>
> This license is *not* the license the Tycho2 catalog was distributed
> with 10 years ago (8th february 2000). It might be worth clarifying with
> Erik Høg, original author of the catalog from the Niels Bohr Institute
> under which license this catalog can be distribued.
>
> Please note that other catalogues distributed by international
> organisations (ESA, NASA) have had a 'please do not modify these files'
> strings attached and have thus fallen into non-free (see gliese and
> yale catalogues).

That is the license of the file I'm distributing. Should I contact Simha and
Harris to see if THEY are violating the Tycho-2 catalog license?
>
> > Programming Lang: N/A
> > Description : Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized
> > install, avoiding per-user install
>
> If the package provides the Tycho2 star data catalogue it should provide
> the *original* catalogue as available in
> http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/catalogs/tycho2.html and not a "pre-cooked" file
> for kstars. If it provides a pre-cooked file for kstars then it should note
> it.

Well, the name itself says it is data for kstars. The package is not named
"tycho2-catalog" but "kstars-data-extra-tycho2". Isn't it?
>
> As for the license, I do not agree with the license you set up for this
> package. If you review http://cdsarc.u-strasbg.fr/cgi-bin/myqcat3?I/259/,
> the Tychos star data catalogue files are certainly *not* GPL. There is no
> mention to the license the catalog can be used with in the README file,
> and certainly there is no mention to the GPL. As such, it can only be
> considered 'non-free'.

As said, I'm not packaging the original Tycho-2 catalog, but a derivative work
on it. Maybe that derivative work is authorized to be under by GPL.
>
> Actually, I believe that the fact that the catalog is not provided *within*
> the kstars program is certainly because it is not considered free.

I believe instead that the fact that the catalog is not provided *within* the
kstars program is certainly because it is quite big and unnecessary for
ocassional use of the program as a home planetarium, since kstars has its own
set of predefined stars up to the visual magnitude. Datafile authors (which are,
by the way, two of the same authors of the program itself) say the datafile is
GPL, so I can not think they decided not to include it because of it being not
free.
>
> Please review the licensing status of the original data files before you
> make an upload of this package to Debian.

Sure I will do.
>
> If you are interested in astronomy packages, I encourage you to subscribe
> to the stardata-common-devel mailing list to seek assistance on how to
> (properly) package star data catalogues in Debian.

As said, I'm not interested in astronomy packages in general (false, I'm
interested but don't have a damn single minute free), but just on avoiding a
very concrete problem I've detected on computers I take care of, namely that
the same gigabytes are downloaded and stored several times. Anyway, every help
offered to get these datasets ported on to the stardata-common-devel format
will be accepted, and if that work starts or if I get more time to package
other catalogs (or even use other astronomy programs), I will surely join that
mailing list.
>
> Regards
>
> Javier

Un abrazo

Noel
er Envite
 
Old 09-20-2010, 08:58 PM
Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña
 
Default Bug#597202: ITP: kstars-data-extra-tycho2 -- Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 05:24:38PM +0100, Noel David Torres Taño wrote:
> > > * License : GPL
> >
> > This license is *not* the license the Tycho2 catalog was distributed
> > with 10 years ago (8th february 2000). It might be worth clarifying with
> > Erik Høg, original author of the catalog from the Niels Bohr Institute
> > under which license this catalog can be distribued.
> >
> > Please note that other catalogues distributed by international
> > organisations (ESA, NASA) have had a 'please do not modify these files'
> > strings attached and have thus fallen into non-free (see gliese and
> > yale catalogues).
>
> That is the license of the file I'm distributing. Should I contact Simha and
> Harris to see if THEY are violating the Tycho-2 catalog license?

Please confirm with them that this *derived* data from the Tycho-2 can be
indeed GPL-licensed. I would be very surprised if this is the case (I've had
contact with some producers of star data catalogues in the past) but if it is
fine.

We packaged the Gliese and Yale packages as they are right now (in non-free
and including the original sources with data files for starplot generated on
install) as the upstream authors would not allow for modification of the star
data catalogs.

Throughout the years maintainers (both Debian and upstream's) have learnt of
this "the hard way", i.e. bugs in celestia: #174456, stellarium #198495,
kstars #198499, xephem 225002 and stars: #246047, gstar #246048, openuniverse
#246049.

Some upstream developers (kstars') were very helpful in the past. When we
took this issue up with them, the kstars team (Jason Harris mainly) digged up
contacts with the catalog providers.

This is what someone from CDS replied (when asked about Hipparcos and SAO
catalogs):

: Catalogues available at CDS contain scientific data distributed
: for free, for a scientific usage. Only the expenses related to
: copying and mailing are charged if relevant.
: Companies including such data in their commercial products cannot
: charge their clients for the data. Furthermore, users must be informed
: of the origin of the data: this means an explicit reference to the service
: provided by the CDS and also to the original author(s) of each catalogue.
:

So this initially made the catalogs used by kstars non-free, they then
contacted people at ESA which confirmed that Hipparcos was in the
public-domain:

: Hello Jason,
:
: The Hipparcos data is in the public domain and may be used
: by anyone. We do request however that use of the catalogue data
: is acknowledged. Something similar to "This application
: makes use of the Hipparcos and Tycho catalogues (ESA, 1997)"
: could be appropriate, and a link to the ESA Hipparcos web pages
: (http://sci.esa.int/hipparcos) would also be appreciated.
:
: Can I enquire what you would like to use the catalogue for?
:
: Regards,
: Karen O'Flaherty

As a consequence kstars switch to the Hypparcos catalog (and many other
astronomy packages too).

Since the main author of the Tycho2 catalog is Erik Høg I suggest asking
the kstars developed if they have contacted him regarding the catalog and, if
not, get clarification from him


> > Actually, I believe that the fact that the catalog is not provided *within*
> > the kstars program is certainly because it is not considered free.
>
> I believe instead that the fact that the catalog is not provided *within* the
(...)
> own set of predefined stars up to the visual magnitude. Datafile authors
> (which are, by the way, two of the same authors of the program itself) say
> the datafile is GPL, so I can not think they decided not to include it
> because of it being not free.

Please, take this up with upstream for clarification because in the past
other upstreams have made the same assumptions which turned out not to be
valid with other catalogs (i.e. yale). It would be best to seek clarification
from the author. I don't see GPL anywhere at
http://www.astro.ku.dk/~erik/Tycho-2/, in fact, I don't see any reference to
licenses at all so I'm quite sure the original author do not stamped a GPL
license to the data.

Since upstream developers (kstars) where very open to discussion and where
really helpful when we brought to them this issue 7 years ago, they probably
have researched this issue, but a statement from the original author of the
catalog (to be used in debian/copyright) would be good to have.

Regards

Javier
 
Old 09-20-2010, 09:09 PM
Noel David Torres Taño
 
Default Bug#597202: ITP: kstars-data-extra-tycho2 -- Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

On Lunes 20 Septiembre 2010 21:58:41 Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña escribió:
[...]
>
> Please confirm with them that this *derived* data from the Tycho-2 can be
> indeed GPL-licensed. I would be very surprised if this is the case (I've
> had contact with some producers of star data catalogues in the past) but
> if it is fine.
>
> We packaged the Gliese and Yale packages as they are right now (in non-free
> and including the original sources with data files for starplot generated
> on install) as the upstream authors would not allow for modification of
> the star data catalogs.
>
> Throughout the years maintainers (both Debian and upstream's) have learnt
> of this "the hard way", i.e. bugs in celestia: #174456, stellarium
> #198495, kstars #198499, xephem 225002 and stars: #246047, gstar #246048,
> openuniverse #246049.
>
> Some upstream developers (kstars') were very helpful in the past. When we
> took this issue up with them, the kstars team (Jason Harris mainly) digged
> up contacts with the catalog providers.
>
> This is what someone from CDS replied (when asked about Hipparcos and SAO
>
> catalogs):
> : Catalogues available at CDS contain scientific data distributed
> : for free, for a scientific usage. Only the expenses related to
> : copying and mailing are charged if relevant.
> : Companies including such data in their commercial products cannot
> : charge their clients for the data. Furthermore, users must be informed
> : of the origin of the data: this means an explicit reference to the
> : service provided by the CDS and also to the original author(s) of each
> : catalogue.
>
> So this initially made the catalogs used by kstars non-free, they then
> contacted people at ESA which confirmed that Hipparcos was in the
>
> public-domain:
> : Hello Jason,
> :
> : The Hipparcos data is in the public domain and may be used
> : by anyone. We do request however that use of the catalogue data
> :
> : is acknowledged. Something similar to "This application
> :
> : makes use of the Hipparcos and Tycho catalogues (ESA, 1997)"
> : could be appropriate, and a link to the ESA Hipparcos web pages
> : (http://sci.esa.int/hipparcos) would also be appreciated.
> :
> : Can I enquire what you would like to use the catalogue for?
> :
> : Regards,
> : Karen O'Flaherty
>
> As a consequence kstars switch to the Hypparcos catalog (and many other
> astronomy packages too).
>
> Since the main author of the Tycho2 catalog is Erik Høg I suggest asking
> the kstars developed if they have contacted him regarding the catalog and,
> if not, get clarification from him
>
> > > Actually, I believe that the fact that the catalog is not provided
> > > *within* the kstars program is certainly because it is not considered
> > > free.
> >
> > I believe instead that the fact that the catalog is not provided *within*
> > the
>
> (...)
>
> > own set of predefined stars up to the visual magnitude. Datafile authors
> > (which are, by the way, two of the same authors of the program itself)
> > say the datafile is GPL, so I can not think they decided not to include
> > it because of it being not free.
>
> Please, take this up with upstream for clarification because in the past
> other upstreams have made the same assumptions which turned out not to be
> valid with other catalogs (i.e. yale). It would be best to seek
> clarification from the author. I don't see GPL anywhere at
> http://www.astro.ku.dk/~erik/Tycho-2/, in fact, I don't see any reference
> to licenses at all so I'm quite sure the original author do not stamped a
> GPL license to the data.
>
> Since upstream developers (kstars) where very open to discussion and where
> really helpful when we brought to them this issue 7 years ago, they
> probably have researched this issue, but a statement from the original
> author of the catalog (to be used in debian/copyright) would be good to
> have.
>
> Regards
>
> Javier

I will contact kstars developers about that, as you suggest. I really do not
want to get Debian into (more) legal issues like those you name. I will try to
get the statement from Erik Høg too (mailed him yesterday, no answer as of
now).

Moreover, the cite from Karen O'Flaherty mentions both Hipparcos and Tycho.
Does it refer just to Tycho 1 ?

Thanks for all the work and advice

Noel
er Envite
 
Old 11-02-2010, 01:16 PM
Noel David Torres Taño
 
Default Bug#597202: ITP: kstars-data-extra-tycho2 -- Contains the Tycho2 star catalog for centralized install, avoiding per-user install

Hello all:

Finally I've found the needed info. Mr. Akarsh Simha from KStars have said me:

> Hi Noel, and others,
>
> I got an almost immediate reply from Jason regarding this stuff. While
> the site that I linked to is down, the WayBack Machine shows that we
> were indeed compliant with the policy (as advertised when we used that
> data):
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20070303235508/http://adc.astro.umd.edu/adc/ques
> tions_feedback.html#policies
>
> The site reads:
>
> All ADC data are public domain unless otherwise stated in the
> "ReadMe" file. The data are for scientific use only and have no
> commercial value.
>
> Use of ADC data in reports, publications or formal presentations of
> any kind should be acknowledged by reference to the original authors
> and publication and to the ADC. The acknowledgement might read:
>
> This paper uses data provided by Joe/Jane Astronomer in AJ, 110,
> 1992 as distributed by the Astronomical Data Center at NASA Goddard
> Space Flight Center.
>
> Maybe we should, although we are not technically any sort of paper
> publication, make it clear somewhere in the README, that the Tycho-2
> catalog is attributed to them.
>
> Noel, is this sufficient? Any advice that you'd have?
>
> Regards
> Akarsh

I've read the ReadMe file of the Tycho2 catalog at http://cdsarc.u-
strasbg.fr/viz-bin/Cat?cat=I%2F259&target=readme& and it says nothing about
any license, so I think that the previous statement is applicable, and thus
the derived data (the cooked catalog file for KStars) is applicable.

Is this enough for the sponsoring process to continue?

Thanks

Noel
er Envite
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 11:50 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org