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Old 07-22-2010, 03:32 PM
Josef Spillner
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

In data giovedý, 22. di luglio 2010 17:24:43, Nicholas Bamber ha scritto:
> Okay so that's what I learnt in school today. Could we have a link to it
> on the from page? There is room in that red menu bar. Actually I tried
> to look for it under "support" and various other places, but I could not
> find it.

Bonus teaching for today: There are more, even bigger Debian forums on the
web, in several languages. Therefore, a link to an overview page with some
explanation of the target groups would be a refined suggestion based on yours.
The right page would probably be http://wiki.debian.org/DebianResources,
although I don't think that specific commercial product advertisement (for
Google services) belongs into it.

Josef


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Old 07-22-2010, 03:39 PM
Benjamin Drung
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

Am Donnerstag, den 22.07.2010, 23:14 +0800 schrieb Paul Wise:
> On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi <cate@debian.org> wrote:
>
> > I think it is bugous to ask such question.
> >
> > IMHO we should care about improving Debian, going toward the perfection, not
> > about increasing the number of users (which should
> > be a nice secondary effect).
> >
> > I don't think increasing the number of Debian user is per se
> > a nice things, after looking Ubuntu.
> ...
> > So, let see how to improve Debian, not how to increase
> > our userbase!
>
> The two are not entirely unrelated. I was a user of Debian before I
> was a Debian contributor. All developers come from a pool of users and
> with more developers we can make a better distro. Figuring out how to
> convert users into developers is the hard part though.

Debian contributors don't have to be Debian users at the beginning. They
can come from Debian-derived distributions and contribute directly to
Debian to avoid work duplication.

--
Benjamin Drung
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Maintainer (www.debian.org)
 
Old 07-22-2010, 10:18 PM
Petter Reinholdtsen
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

[Michael Gilbert]
> That's a great start. However, Patrick is advocating images that
> autodetect and install drivers/packages for non-free hardware as
> well (not just firmware). That could probably be solved
> straightforwardly if someone were to just go ahead implement it;
> perhaps by someone already expressing interest in it???

I've implemented installation of hardware specific packages in
debian-installer using discover-pkginstall, which uses the
hardware->package mapping provided in the discover-data package.
I guess it can also be used to install drivers and packages for
non-free hardware, but suspect it would need to be extended to add the
non-free section to sources.list for this to give a good user
experience.

I welcome help with this. Please test discover-pkginstall and provide
discover-data patches to install the hardware specific packages you
know about.

Happy hacking,
--
Petter Reinholdtsen


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Old 07-23-2010, 07:41 AM
Neil Williams
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 01:59:53 +0200
"Jes˙s M. Navarro" <jesus.navarro@undominio.net> wrote:

> Hi, Neil:
>
> On Thursday 22 July 2010 20:28:49 Neil Williams wrote:
> > On Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:53:53 -0700
> [..]
>
> > Removing packages from testing does not remove them from any existing
> > installation, so it's hard to see how the removal of packages which are
> > plainly not suitable for release in stable supports an assertion that
> > testing is somehow not intended for real users.
>
> Having a system with packages "which are plainly not suitable for release in
> stable" doesn't ring a bell in your book?

So what is Debian expected to do? Leave the package in testing whilst
the bug is tested and fixed in unstable? You can't have it both ways.
Packages in testing will have bugs reported against them, some of those
bug reports are release-critical but not all release-critical bugs
affect all users equally. If the bug cannot be fixed, there is no
alternative but to remove the package from testing and unstable.

Testing is not 'stable'. As the name suggests, it exists for testing
purposes and testing brings new bugs to light or it isn't worth the
name. If you want stable software, use stable but real users still need
to use testing so that some real user testing does occur. The results
of that testing need to be taken into account, otherwise poor quality
software ends up in stable, which nobody wants to see happening.

Debian Testing will contain packages that have release-critical bugs
from time to time and some of those bugs force the removal of that
package from testing because there's no other way of fixing the issue.

Critical bugs cannot be ignored and buggy packages cannot be left in the
archive to trip up someone else - however, those who make a conscious
decision to keep the package can continue to use it until some other
change elsewhere means that the package can no longer operate. (Obsolete
packages like that will just collect more and more bugs because nobody
is working to keep the package in step with the dependencies etc.)

There is no magic wand to fix all critical bugs in all packages (let
alone all important bugs) and bugs will appear in packages in testing or
there is no point having 'testing'. There is no point just bleating
that the bugs all need to be fixed either - it simply isn't possible.
Some bugs just have to be fixed by removing the package. Better to
remove it from testing than leave the buggy package go into stable.

Debian work is voluntary. If you've got ideas on how some RC bugs can
be fixed, post on the relevant bug reports. That's the only way to stop
a buggy package from being removed from testing - stay alert to the
*results* of testing being a test environment and find someone / help
someone who can fix the bugs that are revealed. If you care about the
package, get involved.

If you cannot do that, then either don't use testing or don't complain
when someone else fixes the problem by removing the package.

> > There are no "internal release master reasons" - there are Release
> > Critical bugs
>
> How do you think a bug gains "Critical" status? Is that the kind of software
> you'd want installed in your system?

If the specific bug doesn't affect me directly, then why not? A
security bug doesn't affect me unless the machine running the package
is exposed to the wider network. A FTBFS bug doesn't affect me unless I
need to build that package. This is why we have a script called
rc-alert - it raises these issues with the local admin and lets the
local admin decide whether the package should be uninstalled or whether
the local admin might even have some ideas on how the bug can be fixed.

It isn't that hard to run:

$ sudo apt-get install devscripts
$ rc-alert

> > and if anyone in Debian feels that the RC bug which
> > caused the removal of the package was invalid or not as bad as
> > reported, then that person needs to get involved and disprove the bug
> > or explain why the severity should be downgraded. If users don't do
> > that, there can hardly be complaints if those publicly discussed issues
> > cause the removal of the package from Debian mirrors.
>
> And once a package is removed from Debian mirrors because it is in so bad
> state even Debian Developers can't stand allowing it being installed on third
> party systems, how exactly does it become uninstalled from all those systems
> that unawaringly did installed it?

The admin runs rc-alert and makes their own decision.

Debian does not use the Kindle distribution model.

--


Neil Williams
=============
http://www.data-freedom.org/
http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/
http://e-mail.is-not-s.ms/
 
Old 07-23-2010, 11:56 AM
Mike Bird
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Fri July 23 2010 00:41:12 Neil Williams wrote:
> Critical bugs cannot be ignored and buggy packages cannot be left in the
> archive to trip up someone else

For people who are relying on the package and are not affected by the
critical bug, the removal of the package is itself the problem.

--Mike Bird


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Old 07-23-2010, 12:16 PM
Steffen M÷ller
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

On 07/23/2010 01:56 PM, Mike Bird wrote:
> On Fri July 23 2010 00:41:12 Neil Williams wrote:
>
>> Critical bugs cannot be ignored and buggy packages cannot be left in the
>> archive to trip up someone else
>>
> For people who are relying on the package and are not affected by the
> critical bug, the removal of the package is itself the problem.
>
This depends on the package, the bug and on the user. It seems like
I only now start to understand the importance of snapshot.d.o .

And then, for all the important bugs that are not ours but that of
upstream, we need a good connection in that direction, too. But
the metaphoric phone number I really meant to be called only, not
to actively call.

Steffen


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Old 07-25-2010, 11:42 AM
Stanislav Maslovski
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 05:39:19PM +0200, Benjamin Drung wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 22.07.2010, 23:14 +0800 schrieb Paul Wise:
> > On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Giacomo A. Catenazzi <cate@debian.org> wrote:
> Debian contributors don't have to be Debian users at the beginning. They
> can come from Debian-derived distributions and contribute directly to
> Debian to avoid work duplication.

Sure. First they sell their souls to a daemon and then seek for an
indulgence.

Just kidding.

--
Stanislav


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Old 07-26-2010, 04:05 PM
Russell Gadd
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical
Debian user (Lenny AMD 64 bit)** - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of
times but came back to Debian because of its stability. The main
problem I have is lack of up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel)
and I think this is a common problem with other users. I have to resort
to using* Microsoft Windows sometimes as Flash is being used more and
more by websites. Maybe it's a Linux problem not just Debian - I don't
know, but it is frustrating.



Anything you could do to resolve this would be very welcome.



I hope this email is of some help to you, but you do not need to
acknowledge or reply to this email. Please accept my thanks to you and
your colleagues for all the tremendous work you do for the Debian
community.



Russell Gadd
 
Old 07-26-2010, 04:30 PM
Kumar Appaiah
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

(CCing OP, assuming he isn't subscribed)

On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 05:05:19PM +0100, Russell Gadd wrote:
> I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical Debian
> user (Lenny AMD 64 bit) - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of times but came
> back to Debian because of its stability. The main problem I have is lack of
> up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel) and I think this is a common
> problem with other users. I have to resort to using Microsoft Windows
> sometimes as Flash is being used more and more by websites. Maybe it's a
> Linux problem not just Debian - I don't know, but it is frustrating.
>
> Anything you could do to resolve this would be very welcome.

The sad part is that Flash, at least the original one from Adobe, is
proprietary and closed source software, and official updates and fixes
happen at the will of the company; and with most other proprietary
software, stepmotherly treatment for Linux is the norm when it comes
to updates, whether it is for features or fixes. Unless and until a "free" version
of Flash comes out/one of the existing ones become much more usable,
it is unlikely that this situation will change.

> I hope this email is of some help to you, but you do not need to acknowledge
> or reply to this email. Please accept my thanks to you and your colleagues
> for all the tremendous work you do for the Debian community.

Thank you. Good user feedback, bug reports and participation in the
community helps Debian a lot as well.

Kumar


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Old 07-26-2010, 04:31 PM
Michael Gilbert
 
Default How to make Debian more attractive for users

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 17:05:19 +0100, Russell Gadd wrote:
> I spotted this topic in Debian Project News. I am a non-technical Debian
> user (Lenny AMD 64 bit) - I have tried Ubuntu a couple of times but came
> back to Debian because of its stability. The main problem I have is lack of
> up to date Flash in the browser (Iceweasel) and I think this is a common
> problem with other users. I have to resort to using Microsoft Windows
> sometimes as Flash is being used more and more by websites. Maybe it's a
> Linux problem not just Debian - I don't know, but it is frustrating.

This is a bit off-topic for debian-devel, and should probably be posted
as a question to debian-user@lists.debian.org. Please send replies
there.

Up-to-date flash support is provided by the flashplugin-nonfree package
available from Debian's unofficial backports.org [0]. There is no
gnash backport available, but that would be something nice to have
if someone were interested in that (each backport needs an interested
maintainer).

Best wishes,
Mike

[0] http://backports.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=instructions


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