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Old 01-15-2008, 05:56 AM
Andreas Tille
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Mon, 14 Jan 2008, Peter Clifton wrote:


I'd still very much like to get something like "extra-menus" uploaded in


Well, you did not answered on my hint to desktop-profiles. Could you
please comment on the differences between desktop-profiles and extra-menus?
Perhaps I absolutely missed your point. I'm really interested in
enhancing menus but I would hate if we would start with splitted
forces. So it would really help if you could elaborate a little bit
on this.

Kind regards

Andreas.

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Old 01-15-2008, 06:03 AM
Andreas Tille
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Andreas Tille wrote:


Well, you did not answered on my hint to desktop-profiles. Could you
please comment on the differences between desktop-profiles and extra-menus?
Perhaps I absolutely missed your point. I'm really interested in
enhancing menus but I would hate if we would start with splitted
forces. So it would really help if you could elaborate a little bit
on this.


.... forget this mail - I should have read further on - you just
naswered this in tho other thread ...

Sorry for the noise

Andreas.

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Old 01-15-2008, 08:39 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

Le lundi 14 janvier 2008 à 21:25 +0000, Peter Clifton a écrit :
> Since there are no other categories in the XDG spec which fit, this is
> really why the problem occurs:
>
> "Every conforming desktop environment MUST support" (XDG menu-spec)

At least for GNOME, I have nothing against adding new menus. We have
already done that for games, and this could be done for other categories
as well.

> Clearly the people who wrote the XDG menu spec didn't consider any
> technical applications:
>
> Hydrology
> GIS (Geographic Information system)
> Mathematics, e.g. Matlab / Octave (if it had a GUI) / others
> Mechanical CAD packages
> Structural analysis
> Electrical CAD, IC Design etc..
> Circuit simulation
>
> Also:
> Hamradio, Knitting, Cave surveying, <insert hobby here>
> Physics, Chemistry, <insert science here>
> Medical imaging, Radar, <insert specialist topic here>

I think the good solution is a new "technical" menu with optional
submenus appearing when it becomes too large. If you can agree on the
structure of this menu and make it fit as much as possible to existing
XDG categories, it could be easily added.

Cheers,
--
.'`.
: :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code.
`. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to
`- our own. Resistance is futile.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 11:34 AM
Hamish Moffatt
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 10:39:03AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le lundi 14 janvier 2008 à 21:25 +0000, Peter Clifton a écrit :
> > Since there are no other categories in the XDG spec which fit, this is
> > really why the problem occurs:
> >
> > "Every conforming desktop environment MUST support" (XDG menu-spec)
>
> At least for GNOME, I have nothing against adding new menus. We have
> already done that for games, and this could be done for other categories
> as well.
>
[...]
> I think the good solution is a new "technical" menu with optional
> submenus appearing when it becomes too large. If you can agree on the
> structure of this menu and make it fit as much as possible to existing
> XDG categories, it could be easily added.

Thanks for the suggestion. I agree, with questions:

How many is too many? I understand that having many top-level menus with
a few entries each may be confusing, but grouping electronics, science
and hamradio applications on one menu is also rather odd.

Can submenus be made to appear automatically? I should study the
standards.

I opened #339305 requesting gnome-menus add a ham radio menu more than
two years ago and unfortunately the maintainer has not responded at all.

That still leaves KDE. I guess it has its own implementation of the
standard XDG menus somewhere. Is it better to have a single
implementation of these extra menus that could be recommended by
gnome-menus and (?)kdelibs-data?

Hamish
--
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Old 01-15-2008, 11:48 AM
Hamish Moffatt
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 11:34:10PM +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
> Can submenus be made to appear automatically? I should study the
> standards.

Err, like you did already for games, as you said. I see in the
standard GNOME gnome-applications.menu.

It appears that the Technical menu should include at least;
- Science
- Engineering
- Math
- HamRadio
- Electronics

(The Freedesktop.org menu spec doesn't list Engineering as related to
Electronics, which I think is an oversight.)

I'm not sure if it needs to list ALL of the relevant Additional
Categories; the above are the set of related categories which cover
them.

Should we develop a patch for gnome-menus and submit it in a bug report?

thanks
Hamish
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Old 01-15-2008, 12:22 PM
Andreas Tille
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Hamish Moffatt wrote:


Err, like you did already for games, as you said. I see in the
standard GNOME gnome-applications.menu.

It appears that the Technical menu should include at least;
- Science
- Engineering
- Math
- HamRadio
- Electronics


And here we have good chances for a flame because I as a user would
not expect Science and Math under a main menu "Technical". I'd rather
see "Science" as a main menu entry and find "Math" below this. I
do not say that my point of view is correct but there is no "correct"
location for the sections and it mainly depends from users view where
he might search for certain topics. That's my arguing for grouping
users according to their views and care for them in sub projects
were you are able to do reasonable guessings where a user would
suspect certain applications. This was one sense for the Debian-Med
project because every user of this project will definitely enter
the "Med" main menu and can easily proceed from there. For these
users the "Technical" menu section would be of low use.

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
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Old 01-15-2008, 01:32 PM
José "L. Redrejo" Rodríguez
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

El mar, 15-01-2008 a las 14:22 +0100, Andreas Tille escribió:
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>
> > Err, like you did already for games, as you said. I see in the
> > standard GNOME gnome-applications.menu.
> >
> > It appears that the Technical menu should include at least;
> > - Science
> > - Engineering
> > - Math
> > - HamRadio
> > - Electronics
>
> And here we have good chances for a flame because I as a user would
> not expect Science and Math under a main menu "Technical". I'd rather
> see "Science" as a main menu entry and find "Math" below this. I
> do not say that my point of view is correct but there is no "correct"
> location for the sections and it mainly depends from users view where
> he might search for certain topics. That's my arguing for grouping
> users according to their views and care for them in sub projects
> were you are able to do reasonable guessings where a user would
> suspect certain applications. This was one sense for the Debian-Med
> project because every user of this project will definitely enter
> the "Med" main menu and can easily proceed from there. For these
> users the "Technical" menu section would be of low use.


And another flame decission chance comes when you have to decide if an
application should be under , e.g., Education/electronics or
Technical/Electronics. As an example, where do you think qucs[1] should
be placed? It's wonderfull to study at a deep level how solid state
circuits work, but also wonderful for secondary school children to study
and simulate digital and analogic circuits...

On the other hand, I want to point an undesirable behaviour out: if you
take a look at gnome-applications.menu or kde-applications.menu they
place the merged-directories entry at the beggining of the file, that
has a bad secondary effect: if you want to exclude a desktop file to
appear in a menu branch you can not, as it will be include by the rest
of the file. As example: if you create a Education/Electronic branch
using merged-directories you would like to put applications with
categories Education;Electronics there, but as merged-directories is
merged at the beggining, you waste your time if you try to exclude them
from the education branch, so that application will appear twice: at the
Education branch and at the Education/Electronics branch. That kind of
behaviour only can be avoided using dektop-profiles so the user can
choose what kind of profile he belongs to. So if a user is at the
teachers of students menus he can see qucs at Education/Electronics and
if he is in the, let's say, scientists group he can see it at
Technical/Electronics.

So, if the right profiles are installed in the system, with
apt-get install <application>
the user will see the application in a different branch depending of the
system groups he belongs.


Regards.
José L.

[1] http://packages.debian.org/sid/qucs
 
Old 01-15-2008, 02:22 PM
Andreas Tille
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, José L. Redrejo Rodríguez wrote:


And here we have good chances for a flame because I as a user would
not expect Science and Math under a main menu "Technical". I'd rather
see "Science" as a main menu entry and find "Math" below this. I
do not say that my point of view is correct but there is no "correct"
location for the sections and it mainly depends from users view where
he might search for certain topics. That's my arguing for grouping
users according to their views and care for them in sub projects
were you are able to do reasonable guessings where a user would
suspect certain applications. This was one sense for the Debian-Med
project because every user of this project will definitely enter
the "Med" main menu and can easily proceed from there. For these
users the "Technical" menu section would be of low use.



And another flame decission chance comes when you have to decide if an
application should be under , e.g., Education/electronics or
Technical/Electronics. As an example, where do you think qucs[1] should
be placed? It's wonderfull to study at a deep level how solid state
circuits work, but also wonderful for secondary school children to study
and simulate digital and analogic circuits...


But your argument exactly supports my position that the place
where a user expects a program depends from the tasks a user has to
do. So we need user groups first and afterwards we need the
apropriate menus. It's hard to believe but people (sometimes we
forget that users are people ;-)) are different and there is no
really good way to find a general menu.


So, if the right profiles are installed in the system, with
apt-get install <application>
the user will see the application in a different branch depending of the
system groups he belongs.


I did not dived very deeply into this but does "system group"
here UNIX group or is this even transparent for LDAP using systems etc.?

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de
 
Old 01-15-2008, 02:59 PM
José "L. Redrejo" Rodríguez
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

El mar, 15-01-2008 a las 16:22 +0100, Andreas Tille escribió:
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, José L. Redrejo Rodríguez wrote:
>
> >> And here we have good chances for a flame because I as a user would
> >> not expect Science and Math under a main menu "Technical". I'd rather
> >> see "Science" as a main menu entry and find "Math" below this. I
> >> do not say that my point of view is correct but there is no "correct"
> >> location for the sections and it mainly depends from users view where
> >> he might search for certain topics. That's my arguing for grouping
> >> users according to their views and care for them in sub projects
> >> were you are able to do reasonable guessings where a user would
> >> suspect certain applications. This was one sense for the Debian-Med
> >> project because every user of this project will definitely enter
> >> the "Med" main menu and can easily proceed from there. For these
> >> users the "Technical" menu section would be of low use.
> >
> >
> > And another flame decission chance comes when you have to decide if an
> > application should be under , e.g., Education/electronics or
> > Technical/Electronics. As an example, where do you think qucs[1] should
> > be placed? It's wonderfull to study at a deep level how solid state
> > circuits work, but also wonderful for secondary school children to study
> > and simulate digital and analogic circuits...
>
> But your argument exactly supports my position that the place
> where a user expects a program depends from the tasks a user has to
> do. So we need user groups first and afterwards we need the
> apropriate menus. It's hard to believe but people (sometimes we
> forget that users are people ;-)) are different and there is no
> really good way to find a general menu.

Exactly, my conclusions after working sometime on this issue is the
same: we need user groups, then menu profiles for those groups , then
desktop-profiles to join both (just
using /etc/xdg/menu/applications-merged doesn't work because of the bad
place of the "<DefaultMergeDirs/>" line in current
gnome/kde-applications.menu files)

>
> > So, if the right profiles are installed in the system, with
> > apt-get install <application>
> > the user will see the application in a different branch depending of the
> > system groups he belongs.
>
> I did not dived very deeply into this but does "system group"
> here UNIX group or is this even transparent for LDAP using systems etc.?
>

I think so, I don't see any reason for a more complicated solution. I
did my tests for education using students & teachers unix groups (under
LDAP) with desktop-profiles and it works perfectly.

Regards,
José L.
 
Old 01-15-2008, 08:18 PM
Hamish Moffatt
 
Default electronics-menu REJECTED (discussion)

On Tue, Jan 15, 2008 at 02:22:19PM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2008, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
>
>> Err, like you did already for games, as you said. I see in the
>> standard GNOME gnome-applications.menu.
>>
>> It appears that the Technical menu should include at least;
>> - Science
>> - Engineering
>> - Math
>> - HamRadio
>> - Electronics
>
> And here we have good chances for a flame because I as a user would
> not expect Science and Math under a main menu "Technical". I'd rather
> see "Science" as a main menu entry and find "Math" below this. I
> do not say that my point of view is correct but there is no "correct"
> location for the sections and it mainly depends from users view where
> he might search for certain topics. That's my arguing for grouping

I thought that Science fit under Technical, if the offer was for
one additional main menu. However it's clearly big enough to have its
own main menu (there are lots of Science sub-categories in the
standard).

Math is an interesting case in that it's obviously a science, yet the
tools are also used in engineering and also education. Hence your point
about different user views. (On the other hand, putting everything under
Technical helps too ).


Hamish
--
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