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Old 03-04-2010, 10:40 PM
John Wright
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

Hi kernel team,

(Cc-ing -devel to get more eyes on the subject, since I'm soliciting
ideas here... See [1] for some context.)

What would it take to get kernel debuginfo into squeeze? As I
understand it, the main blockers were [2]:

1) It would blow up the archive by ~10 GB
- This is a lot of space, but I believe it's worth it for crash
dump and systemtap support.
2) It would increase the buildd disk requirements as well. Bastion
gave a 30 GB figure, given 8 flavors in a particular architecture.
- Do we have that many flavors for any arch now?)
- Do we have buildd's that are this low on disk space? Couldn't we
upgrade them?

I haven't tried to see if my patch still applies against the current
linux-2.6 packaging. If I made sure it still worked (submitting a new
patch if necessary, of course), would you consider accepting it?

Another alternative would be to turn on the CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO and
CONFIG_KPROBES options, but strip the kernel and modules, but at least
provide some script a user could run to rebuild the kernel with the same
options and compiler to get the debug symbols. Or maybe upload the
debuginfo packages to a separate archive? There was some discussion
about a large data archive a few years ago, and Joerg mentioned in May
2008 that such an archive setup was only a couple weeks out [3]. But I
haven't heard anything since then...

And then there's debug.debian.net - but I suspect that to get kernel
debug symbols into there would require changes both to linux-2.6 and the
scripts that service uses.

Any opinions? Suggestions?

[1]: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=365349
[2]: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=365349#138
[3]: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/05/msg00970.html

--
John Wright <jsw@debian.org>


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Old 03-05-2010, 01:07 AM
Andreas Marschke
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

My 2 cents being that I'm far from part of the kernel team:

Am Freitag 05 März 2010 00:40:27 schrieb John Wright:
> Hi kernel team,
>
> What would it take to get kernel debuginfo into squeeze? As I
> understand it, the main blockers were [2]:
>
> 1) It would blow up the archive by ~10 GB
> - This is a lot of space, but I believe it's worth it for crash
> dump and systemtap support.
Having these supported would be dead handy.
> 2) It would increase the buildd disk requirements as well. Bastion
> gave a 30 GB figure, given 8 flavors in a particular architecture.
I would say even more than 30 GB since you neeed for each arch so many kernel
flavours + matching modules to them afaik.
> - Do we have that many flavors for any arch now?)
Yes, I can remember 4 : VServer- , OpenVz- , Xen- , Standard- Kernel-Images.
For these you need the drivers, the modules all build seperately and
against them.
Then there are the whole bunch of different modules and packages that have
to hookinto a particular part of the Kernel(libnetfilter?).
Then there is the whole lot of patch sets, modules, source-packages.
All in all ~30GB is a good rough estimate.

> - Do we have buildd's that are this low on disk space? Couldn't we
> upgrade them?
You could donate disks if you want but I doubt that this solves the overall
problem. FTPMasters sure have a reason why they dont want so many flavours in
their repos.

> I haven't tried to see if my patch still applies against the current
> linux-2.6 packaging. If I made sure it still worked (submitting a new
> patch if necessary, of course), would you consider accepting it?
IMHO If your patch still works you could package it as a deb and let people
apply it to their kernel and recompile if they want to.
In this case can you tell how big the package would be when you would make
that for your patch?

Cheers,

Andreas Marschke.

PS: Just my 2 Cents...


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Old 03-05-2010, 07:07 AM
Lucas Nussbaum
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

On 04/03/10 at 16:40 -0700, John Wright wrote:
> Hi kernel team,
>
> (Cc-ing -devel to get more eyes on the subject, since I'm soliciting
> ideas here... See [1] for some context.)
>
> What would it take to get kernel debuginfo into squeeze? As I
> understand it, the main blockers were [2]:

Hi John,

I raised the same question a few weeks ago. See the thread starting at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00403.html

Summary:
- Some buildds for slow arches are hosted on DSL lines, making it
unpractical to upload very large kernel images (my -dbg .deb takes
424 MB on amd64).
=> Support could be limited to fast arches with well-connected
buildds: i386, amd64, powerpc, s390 and ia64

- Archive space problem
=> Support could be limited to some flavours (like, only the standard
one, for a start)

- Buildd disk space: not a problem on the fast arches

So, the major blockers seem to be network bandwidth (to upload the
packages) and increased build time for the kernel maintainers. See
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00472.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00478.html

I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?

> Another alternative would be to turn on the CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO and
> CONFIG_KPROBES options, but strip the kernel and modules, but at least
> provide some script a user could run to rebuild the kernel with the same
> options and compiler to get the debug symbols. Or maybe upload the
> debuginfo packages to a separate archive? There was some discussion
> about a large data archive a few years ago, and Joerg mentioned in May
> 2008 that such an archive setup was only a couple weeks out [3]. But I
> haven't heard anything since then...

It isn't that complicated to build your own kernel image with debuginfo,
and it takes 30 mins on a fast 8-cores system. My notes:
apt-get install linux-image-2.6.32-3-amd64 linux-source-2.6.32 kernel-package
tar xf /usr/src/linux-source-2.6.32.tar.bz2
cd linux-source-2.6.32
cp /boot/config-2.6.32-3-amd64 .config
edit .config:
CONFIG_KPROBES=y
CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO=y
make oldconfig
export PATH="/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH"
make-kpkg -j 16 --append-to-version +kprobes --revision=1 --initrd binary-arch
--
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lucas@lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lucas@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Old 03-05-2010, 07:07 AM
Lucas Nussbaum
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

On 04/03/10 at 16:40 -0700, John Wright wrote:
> Hi kernel team,
>
> (Cc-ing -devel to get more eyes on the subject, since I'm soliciting
> ideas here... See [1] for some context.)
>
> What would it take to get kernel debuginfo into squeeze? As I
> understand it, the main blockers were [2]:

Hi John,

I raised the same question a few weeks ago. See the thread starting at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00403.html

Summary:
- Some buildds for slow arches are hosted on DSL lines, making it
unpractical to upload very large kernel images (my -dbg .deb takes
424 MB on amd64).
=> Support could be limited to fast arches with well-connected
buildds: i386, amd64, powerpc, s390 and ia64

- Archive space problem
=> Support could be limited to some flavours (like, only the standard
one, for a start)

- Buildd disk space: not a problem on the fast arches

So, the major blockers seem to be network bandwidth (to upload the
packages) and increased build time for the kernel maintainers. See
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00472.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00478.html

I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?

> Another alternative would be to turn on the CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO and
> CONFIG_KPROBES options, but strip the kernel and modules, but at least
> provide some script a user could run to rebuild the kernel with the same
> options and compiler to get the debug symbols. Or maybe upload the
> debuginfo packages to a separate archive? There was some discussion
> about a large data archive a few years ago, and Joerg mentioned in May
> 2008 that such an archive setup was only a couple weeks out [3]. But I
> haven't heard anything since then...

It isn't that complicated to build your own kernel image with debuginfo,
and it takes 30 mins on a fast 8-cores system. My notes:
apt-get install linux-image-2.6.32-3-amd64 linux-source-2.6.32 kernel-package
tar xf /usr/src/linux-source-2.6.32.tar.bz2
cd linux-source-2.6.32
cp /boot/config-2.6.32-3-amd64 .config
edit .config:
CONFIG_KPROBES=y
CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO=y
make oldconfig
export PATH="/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH"
make-kpkg -j 16 --append-to-version +kprobes --revision=1 --initrd binary-arch
--
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lucas@lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lucas@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Old 03-05-2010, 10:27 AM
John Wright
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

Hi Lucas,

On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:07:50AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 04/03/10 at 16:40 -0700, John Wright wrote:
> > Hi kernel team,
> >
> > (Cc-ing -devel to get more eyes on the subject, since I'm soliciting
> > ideas here... See [1] for some context.)
> >
> > What would it take to get kernel debuginfo into squeeze? As I
> > understand it, the main blockers were [2]:
>
> Hi John,
>
> I raised the same question a few weeks ago. See the thread starting at
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00403.html

Agh, I totally missed that discussion. Sorry to bring it back up in a
new thread...

> Summary:
> - Some buildds for slow arches are hosted on DSL lines, making it
> unpractical to upload very large kernel images (my -dbg .deb takes
> 424 MB on amd64).
> => Support could be limited to fast arches with well-connected
> buildds: i386, amd64, powerpc, s390 and ia64
>
> - Archive space problem
> => Support could be limited to some flavours (like, only the standard
> one, for a start)

I think we could live with those compromises.

> - Buildd disk space: not a problem on the fast arches
>
> So, the major blockers seem to be network bandwidth (to upload the
> packages) and increased build time for the kernel maintainers. See
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00472.html
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00478.html
>
> I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
> sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
> kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?

Makes sense to me, especially if it had good connectivity to ftp-master.
What would it take to make this happen? And would it make building
debug info more palatable to the kernel team?

> > Another alternative would be to turn on the CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO and
> > CONFIG_KPROBES options, but strip the kernel and modules, but at least
> > provide some script a user could run to rebuild the kernel with the same
> > options and compiler to get the debug symbols. Or maybe upload the
> > debuginfo packages to a separate archive? There was some discussion
> > about a large data archive a few years ago, and Joerg mentioned in May
> > 2008 that such an archive setup was only a couple weeks out [3]. But I
> > haven't heard anything since then...
>
> It isn't that complicated to build your own kernel image with debuginfo,
> and it takes 30 mins on a fast 8-cores system. My notes:
> apt-get install linux-image-2.6.32-3-amd64 linux-source-2.6.32 kernel-package
> tar xf /usr/src/linux-source-2.6.32.tar.bz2
> cd linux-source-2.6.32
> cp /boot/config-2.6.32-3-amd64 .config
> edit .config:
> CONFIG_KPROBES=y
> CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO=y
> make oldconfig
> export PATH="/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH"
> make-kpkg -j 16 --append-to-version +kprobes --revision=1 --initrd binary-arch

True, but it doesn't give you debug data you can use with the kernel
Debian actually ships (although it might if CONFIG_KPROBES=y and
CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO=y in the real kernel, but it were stripped...). Part
of the appeal is being able to use systemtap and crash without also
basically having to be your own kernel maintainer.

--
John Wright <jsw@debian.org>


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Old 03-05-2010, 10:27 AM
John Wright
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

Hi Lucas,

On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:07:50AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> On 04/03/10 at 16:40 -0700, John Wright wrote:
> > Hi kernel team,
> >
> > (Cc-ing -devel to get more eyes on the subject, since I'm soliciting
> > ideas here... See [1] for some context.)
> >
> > What would it take to get kernel debuginfo into squeeze? As I
> > understand it, the main blockers were [2]:
>
> Hi John,
>
> I raised the same question a few weeks ago. See the thread starting at
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00403.html

Agh, I totally missed that discussion. Sorry to bring it back up in a
new thread...

> Summary:
> - Some buildds for slow arches are hosted on DSL lines, making it
> unpractical to upload very large kernel images (my -dbg .deb takes
> 424 MB on amd64).
> => Support could be limited to fast arches with well-connected
> buildds: i386, amd64, powerpc, s390 and ia64
>
> - Archive space problem
> => Support could be limited to some flavours (like, only the standard
> one, for a start)

I think we could live with those compromises.

> - Buildd disk space: not a problem on the fast arches
>
> So, the major blockers seem to be network bandwidth (to upload the
> packages) and increased build time for the kernel maintainers. See
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00472.html
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/02/msg00478.html
>
> I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
> sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
> kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?

Makes sense to me, especially if it had good connectivity to ftp-master.
What would it take to make this happen? And would it make building
debug info more palatable to the kernel team?

> > Another alternative would be to turn on the CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO and
> > CONFIG_KPROBES options, but strip the kernel and modules, but at least
> > provide some script a user could run to rebuild the kernel with the same
> > options and compiler to get the debug symbols. Or maybe upload the
> > debuginfo packages to a separate archive? There was some discussion
> > about a large data archive a few years ago, and Joerg mentioned in May
> > 2008 that such an archive setup was only a couple weeks out [3]. But I
> > haven't heard anything since then...
>
> It isn't that complicated to build your own kernel image with debuginfo,
> and it takes 30 mins on a fast 8-cores system. My notes:
> apt-get install linux-image-2.6.32-3-amd64 linux-source-2.6.32 kernel-package
> tar xf /usr/src/linux-source-2.6.32.tar.bz2
> cd linux-source-2.6.32
> cp /boot/config-2.6.32-3-amd64 .config
> edit .config:
> CONFIG_KPROBES=y
> CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO=y
> make oldconfig
> export PATH="/usr/lib/ccache:$PATH"
> make-kpkg -j 16 --append-to-version +kprobes --revision=1 --initrd binary-arch

True, but it doesn't give you debug data you can use with the kernel
Debian actually ships (although it might if CONFIG_KPROBES=y and
CONFIG_DEBUG_INFO=y in the real kernel, but it were stripped...). Part
of the appeal is being able to use systemtap and crash without also
basically having to be your own kernel maintainer.

--
John Wright <jsw@debian.org>


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Old 03-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Bastian Blank
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:07:50AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
> sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
> kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?

The easiest fix is the official blessing by the ftp team to upload only
the architecture independant packages and build all architectures on the
buildds.

Bastian

--
Time is fluid ... like a river with currents, eddies, backwash.
-- Spock, "The City on the Edge of Forever", stardate 3134.0


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Old 03-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Bastian Blank
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:07:50AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
> sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
> kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?

The easiest fix is the official blessing by the ftp team to upload only
the architecture independant packages and build all architectures on the
buildds.

Bastian

--
Time is fluid ... like a river with currents, eddies, backwash.
-- Spock, "The City on the Edge of Forever", stardate 3134.0


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Old 03-06-2010, 05:06 PM
Lucas Nussbaum
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

[ Adding ftpmasters to To: ]

On 05/03/10 at 19:34 +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:07:50AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
> > sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
> > kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?
>
> The easiest fix is the official blessing by the ftp team to upload only
> the architecture independant packages and build all architectures on the
> buildds.

Ftpmasters, would it be acceptable for the kernel team to upload only
the architecture independant packages ?
It would allow to provide debug packages on fast architectures without
forcing the developers to upload them using their slow internet
connections, solving #365349.
--
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lucas@lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lucas@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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Old 03-06-2010, 05:06 PM
Lucas Nussbaum
 
Default linux-image-*-dbg for squeeze?

[ Adding ftpmasters to To: ]

On 05/03/10 at 19:34 +0100, Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 05, 2010 at 09:07:50AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
> > I wonder what we (as Debian) could do about it. Would it make sense to
> > sponsor a very fast machine that the kernel team could use to build the
> > kernels and upload from, replacing kernel-archive.buildserver.net ?
>
> The easiest fix is the official blessing by the ftp team to upload only
> the architecture independant packages and build all architectures on the
> buildds.

Ftpmasters, would it be acceptable for the kernel team to upload only
the architecture independant packages ?
It would allow to provide debug packages on fast architectures without
forcing the developers to upload them using their slow internet
connections, solving #365349.
--
| Lucas Nussbaum
| lucas@lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ |
| jabber: lucas@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F |


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