There are many packages in debian contain flag images.
For example:
awstats - /usr/share/awstats/icon/flags/
b2evolution - /usr/share/b2evolution/rsc/flags/h10px
bygfoot - /usr/share/games/bygfoot/support_files/pixmaps/symbols
deluge-common - /usr/share/pyshared/deluge/data/pixmaps/flags
etc

I'm going to add into debian a few new (my) projects which need flag
images and so I want to add a package which contains flag set.

There is one question: where these images can be placed?

Standard place is /usr/share/<package> or /usr/share/pixmaps/... or
/usr/share/icons, but all of these variants don't include flag
specific.

I think that it would be nice to separate such directory and place
flags into in.
for example

/usr/share/flags
or
/usr/share/pixmaps/flags
Then packages could use (and people could seek) this place as shared
place for identical tasks.

Now I want to add a package which contains these icons:
http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/flags/

Is it meaning to use separating directory like /usr/share/flags or
/usr/share/pixmaps/flags or not? If Yes which of these variants will
be better?
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. '`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov
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`. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21
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On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov <unera@debian.org> wrote:

> I'm going to add into debian a few new (my) projects which need flag
> images and so I want to add a package which contains flag set.

Are you sure they need flags? Which package and what exactly will the
flags represent?

I would personally suggest to avoid adding flags to Debian where possible.

Some background to my opinion:

http://lwn.net/Articles/333623/
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_Maintainers_Flags_Policy
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/legal/2009-January/thread.html#501
http://lwn.net/Articles/334519/

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>> I'm going to add into debian a few new (my) projects which need flag
>> images and so I want to add a package which contains flag set.

PW> Are you sure they need flags? Which package and what exactly will the
PW> flags represent?

PW> I would personally suggest to avoid adding flags to Debian where possible.

new version of rtpg (rtpg2) will have language button and geoIP peer's
information with country's flag etc.

Why should I avoid adding flags? I looked through Your links but I
didn't understand why using flags is a bad way? I have found full
free flag collection, flags occur in many packages and I think it is
the obvious method to separate geo information.

PW> Some background to my opinion:

PW> http://lwn.net/Articles/333623/
PW> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_Maintainers_Flags_Policy
PW> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/legal/2009-January/thread.html#501
PW> http://lwn.net/Articles/334519/

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. '`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov
: :’ : email: unera@debian.org jabber://UNera@uvw.ru
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> I wish to use my country's flag to refer to my language...

> Don't. There are many languages not associated with countries or in
> use in many different countries. Also, some flags are considered
> very political, and are thus very controversial. For example, the
> government of mainland China (People's Republic of China) bans
> software that includes the Taiwanese (Republic of China) flag, and
> many muslim people frown upon the Israeli flag. Also, new
> governments sometimes change flags, which is sometimes resisted and
> hated by some patriotic circles who preferred the previous
> government.

Is it really so big problem? Looks like as non-issue, farfetched.
Hgm.
Who can tell anything about it?
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`. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21
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On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 AM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov <unera@debian.org> wrote:

> new version of rtpg (rtpg2) will have language button and geoIP peer's
> information with country's flag etc.

Sounds like a fairly pointless feature to me. Unfortunately that seems
to be common in torrent clients these days. The language button
likewise sounds less than useful since HTTP content negotiation does
the same job automatically.

> Why should I avoid adding flags? I looked through Your links but I
> didn't understand why using flags is a bad way? I have found full
> free flag collection, flags occur in many packages and I think it is
> the obvious method to separate geo information.

I'd encourage you to read the whole LWN thread, but in short: to
prevent nationalistic or political disputes from affecting Debian.

As an example of the practical effects of flags in the context of
Debian; a number of years ago we lost our kernel maintainer, partially
because KDE in Debian included a flag of a country the maintainer (and
his government) disapproved of. A team formed to replace him, but
losing contributors still sucks.

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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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On 03:37 Tue 16 Feb , Paul Wise wrote:
PW> On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 AM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov <unera@debian.org> wrote:

>> new version of rtpg (rtpg2) will have language button and geoIP peer's
>> information with country's flag etc.

PW> Sounds like a fairly pointless feature to me. Unfortunately that seems
PW> to be common in torrent clients these days. The language button
PW> likewise sounds less than useful since HTTP content negotiation does
PW> the same job automatically.

>> Why should I avoid adding flags? I looked through Your links but I
>> didn't understand why using flags is a bad way? I have found full
>> free flag collection, flags occur in many packages and I think it is
>> the obvious method to separate geo information.

PW> I'd encourage you to read the whole LWN thread, but in short: to
PW> prevent nationalistic or political disputes from affecting Debian.

PW> As an example of the practical effects of flags in the context of
PW> Debian; a number of years ago we lost our kernel maintainer, partially
PW> because KDE in Debian included a flag of a country the maintainer (and
PW> his government) disapproved of. A team formed to replace him, but
PW> losing contributors still sucks.

Hgm..
When I saw KDE (it was 1.xx version) it contained lang switcher which
used flags as language indicator. What happened to it? How is this task
resolved now?

In my project flags wont be required but i would upload/maintain
separated flags package (it is already in NEW stage). Yes, flags can
activate some people, for example I hate our current russian flag
which was used by traitor army of Vlasov in Great Patriotic War and
now is using our occupation government, but it is usually practice to
use flags as indicators and I don't know other alternatives - I'm
using it.

We wanted to add flags package and add suggest or recommend level of
dependence into our package. But If it is so meaningful theme may be
it must be noticed in debian-policy?
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. '`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov
: :’ : email: unera@debian.org jabber://UNera@uvw.ru
`. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21
`- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537

On Mon, 15 Feb 2010, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote:

> >> I'm going to add into debian a few new (my) projects which need flag
> >> images and so I want to add a package which contains flag set.
>
> PW> Are you sure they need flags? Which package and what exactly will the
> PW> flags represent?
>
> PW> I would personally suggest to avoid adding flags to Debian where possible.
>
> new version of rtpg (rtpg2) will have language button

Flags are a poor representation of a particular language, and language
selection is better handled using locales and content-negotiation
anyway. [There are many examples where a country speaks many
languages, and examples where multiple countries have the same
language, but different dialects.]


Don Armstrong

--
"Them as can do has to do for them as can't. And someone has to speak
up for them as have no voices."
-- Grandma Aching in _The Wee Free Men_ by Terry Pratchett p227

http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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Hi!

Dmitry E. Oboukhov schrieb:
>> I wish to use my country's flag to refer to my language...
>> Don't. There are many languages not associated with countries or in
>> use in many different countries. [..]
> Is it really so big problem? Looks like as non-issue, farfetched.

Believe me as someone who mentioned "Taiwan" and "Tibet" in a press
announcement: Such things aren't far fetched..


Best regards,
Alexander

Paul,

I read through the links you provided. There was a cogent argument
against using flags to symbolize a language. I would accept that.
However, while I understand your argument about losing contributors,
I'm not completely convinced that using a flag chosen by country X to
represent country X is a bad idea.

Moreover, I didn't see a resolution on the question of Fedora's flag
policy. The link http://lwn.net/Articles/334519/ says the committee
voted to

* revert/suspend the policy approved the prior week
* have people look into the issues and gather data (requirements of
* various locales, number of packages affected, etc.)
* craft a policy based on further data, or decide that one is not
* required at all

This vote dates from May 2009. Do you know what was ultimately
decided?

Thanks,
-Steve

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 03:21:23PM -0600, Steve M. Robbins wrote:
> I read through the links you provided. There was a cogent argument
> against using flags to symbolize a language. I would accept that.
> However, while I understand your argument about losing contributors,
> I'm not completely convinced that using a flag chosen by country X to
> represent country X is a bad idea.

Country codes are not assigned solely to countries. What flag do we use
to represent .pr? Or .je? .an? .cx? .tw?

Puerto Rico, for example, is a commonwealth of the United States. Its
head of state is the US president, but it is not represented in the US
Congress. Both its own flag and the US flag fly over its capitol.
Which one do we use to indicate it?

Taiwan is a particularly sensitive area. Do you indicate Taiwan with
the ROC flag or PRC flag? How many people do you want to offend? And
who makes this decision?

If you're only using flags to denote countries, you also have the
problem of recognition. /usr/share/misc/countries.gz has 244 lines, and
therefore 244 territories. 244 flags is a lot to recognize immediately.

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