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Old 11-20-2009, 01:51 PM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

severity 557218 important
thanks

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 11:59:07AM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 14:00 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> > the Debian CD team (in the person of Steve McIntyre) has noted the
> > enormous size of nexuiz-data, which means the package won't fit on a
> > single CD. I'm setting severity serious because this de facto means the
> > package cannot be distributed to our CD users. I agree that the severity
> > can be controversial since we have other ways of distributing packages;
> > feel free to downgrade, better if after discussion with the release team
> > (even better by reducing the size ;-))
>
> This is silly. I haven't seen bug reports about packages not fitting in
> diskettes, and it would not make any sense if they were filed! =).

Apparently, a lot of people (not only you, also people on IRC) have
missed the following bits of the above quoted text:

> > feel free to downgrade

So, let me clarify, I just wanted to prod a decision on whether we want
for our packages the property that packages fit on a CD. Nothing more
than that (besides of course submitting a bug report, that helps keeping
track of the issue).

Personally I completely agree with what you said, CD (at least as a
medium to get the whole of Debian) are the past and I couldn't care less
about supporting them. That, in my eyes, does not solve our problem of
deciding whether we want to support them _nevertheless_, given that CD
are not so long in the past, and given that not every citizen in the
world has a bandwidth capable of downloading 750 Mb.

That said, I'm downgrading severity, but doing that IMO would not solve
our need to decide on this issue.

Cheers.

--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c' ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...........| ..: |.... Je dis tu tous ceux que j'aime
 
Old 11-20-2009, 02:07 PM
Philipp Kern
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On 2009-11-20, Stefano Zacchiroli <zack@debian.org> wrote:
> Personally I completely agree with what you said, CD (at least as a
> medium to get the whole of Debian) are the past and I couldn't care less
> about supporting them. That, in my eyes, does not solve our problem of
> deciding whether we want to support them _nevertheless_, given that CD
> are not so long in the past, and given that not every citizen in the
> world has a bandwidth capable of downloading 750 Mb.

Sorry, but there are more options than CD and downloading: DVDs. And that's
a viable solution here, IMHO.

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern


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Old 11-20-2009, 02:33 PM
Gustavo Noronha Silva
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:23 +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> Ack. People which use computers which did not came with a DVD reader built in
> are probably not able to play nexuiz anyway as it needs a pretty fastCPU and
> graphics card to be fun

Well, you see, my current computer (Lenovo x200s) does not have an
optical drive at all. I had to install Debian using an usb stick. It
does have a fast enough CPU and graphics card to play nexuiz though,
mind you.

My point is that the fact that our packages are showing the age of the
media we still want to support should not be a bug.

See you,

--
Gustavo Noronha Silva <kov@debian.org>
Debian


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Old 11-20-2009, 02:47 PM
Mike Hommey
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 01:33:29PM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:23 +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > Ack. People which use computers which did not came with a DVD reader built in
> > are probably not able to play nexuiz anyway as it needs a pretty fastCPU and
> > graphics card to be fun
>
> Well, you see, my current computer (Lenovo x200s) does not have an
> optical drive at all. I had to install Debian using an usb stick. It
> does have a fast enough CPU and graphics card to play nexuiz though,
> mind you.
>
> My point is that the fact that our packages are showing the age of the
> media we still want to support should not be a bug.

It surely is a bug for those who care about CDs. But Zack's point is:
should it be RC, normal, minor, or wontfix ?

Mike


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Old 11-20-2009, 02:50 PM
Steve McIntyre
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 02:00:18PM +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
>Package: nexuiz-data
>Version: 2.5.2-1
>Severity: serious
>
>Any reason for not reporting this as a proper bug? Doing that with this
>post.

True, should have done that too. Thanks. :-)

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com
Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/cafe/


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Old 11-20-2009, 03:13 PM
Gustavo Noronha Silva
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 16:47 +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
> It surely is a bug for those who care about CDs. But Zack's point is:
> should it be RC, normal, minor, or wontfix ?

minor =)

--
Gustavo Noronha Silva <kov@debian.org>
Debian


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Old 11-21-2009, 11:22 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

]] Mike Hommey

| On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 01:33:29PM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
| > On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:23 +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
| > > Ack. People which use computers which did not came with a DVD reader built in
| > > are probably not able to play nexuiz anyway as it needs a pretty fastCPU and
| > > graphics card to be fun
| >
| > Well, you see, my current computer (Lenovo x200s) does not have an
| > optical drive at all. I had to install Debian using an usb stick. It
| > does have a fast enough CPU and graphics card to play nexuiz though,
| > mind you.
| >
| > My point is that the fact that our packages are showing the age of the
| > media we still want to support should not be a bug.
|
| It surely is a bug for those who care about CDs. But Zack's point is:
| should it be RC, normal, minor, or wontfix ?

I disagree with it being a bug in the package; if the data needs to be
so big because of quality of textures or number of levels or whatever,
that's just how the world is.

It's not like it's a bug in linux-image-2.6.31-1-amd64 that it doesn't
fit on a 16MB USB stick, which is a similar case albeit with a scale
difference.

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 11-22-2009, 09:38 AM
Philip Hands
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 01:22:46AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> ]] Mike Hommey
>
> | On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 01:33:29PM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote:
> | > On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:23 +0100, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> | > > Ack. People which use computers which did not came with a DVD reader built in
> | > > are probably not able to play nexuiz anyway as it needs a pretty fastCPU and
> | > > graphics card to be fun
> | >
> | > Well, you see, my current computer (Lenovo x200s) does not have an
> | > optical drive at all. I had to install Debian using an usb stick. It
> | > does have a fast enough CPU and graphics card to play nexuiz though,
> | > mind you.
> | >
> | > My point is that the fact that our packages are showing the age of the
> | > media we still want to support should not be a bug.
> |
> | It surely is a bug for those who care about CDs. But Zack's point is:
> | should it be RC, normal, minor, or wontfix ?
>
> I disagree with it being a bug in the package; if the data needs to be
> so big because of quality of textures or number of levels or whatever,
> that's just how the world is.

If for the quality of the textures, or some other difficult to divide
data, fair enough, but if it's for the number of levels (or other
logically separable unit) it would make sense to split it by level,
with a separate package for the first (or first few) levels that should
be a Depends, with subsequent levels being Recommends.

That way, not only can the game and first levels be on the CDs, with the
bulk of the levels either being tacked on to later CDs (or simply left
off), but if someone wants to have a look at the game to see if they
like it, they don't have to waste time/bandwidth in order to discover
that it's not for them.

Cheers, Phil.
--
|)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/
|-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND


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Old 11-24-2009, 02:04 PM
Jon Dowland
 
Default nexuiz-data does not fit on a single CD

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 10:38:29AM +0000, Philip Hands
wrote:
> That way, not only can the game and first levels be on the
> CDs, with the bulk of the levels either being tacked on to
> later CDs (or simply left off), but if someone wants to
> have a look at the game to see if they like it, they don't
> have to waste time/bandwidth in order to discover that
> it's not for them.

That sounds like a good argument for packaging "demo"
versions of games, but I'm not sure that breaking up
complete games into separate packages is a good idea.
It's a bit like breaking up a commercial game into
episodic content and charging at the boundaries ("to
play this quest, please buy expansion pack zeta!"),
except I doubt our games would cope with the missing
resources in a good manner (most likely, crash when
a required resource is missing).


--
Jon Dowland
 

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