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Old 03-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Pierre Habouzit
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

We're in an era where inetds are less and less a central piece of a
standard Linux distribution. Inetd was used in the past because many
servers lacked a proper standalone mode, or were too memory-hungry.

Most machines nowadays have enough memory, and most daemons provide a
standalone mode (I mean who configures apache as an inetd service ?).

Looking at my own case, my sole inetd uses are for bitlebee which
nowadays provides a standalone mode, and git-daemon because I'm too lazy
to write an init script.

Just looking at the packages requiring an inet superserver, you'll see that
it's probably that nowadays users don't need a superserver at all[0].

I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
goal for squeeze.

Note: I'm not saying we should remove super servers from Debian, I'm just
saying it's not as central as it used to be.



[0] grep-dctrl -sSource,Package -FDepends inet-superserver gives:

Package: afbackup

Source: amanda
Package: amanda-common

Source: atftp
Package: atftpd

Package: bidentd

Package: bozohttpd

Package: dbskkd-cdb

Source: fai
Package: fai-quickstart

Package: fakepop

Source: firebird2.0
Package: firebird2.0-classic

Source: firebird2.1
Package: firebird2.1-classic

Source: linux-ftpd
Package: ftpd

Source: linux-ftpd-ssl
Package: ftpd-ssl

Package: gtalk

Package: gwhois

Source: heimdal
Package: heimdal-kdc

Source: heimdal
Package: heimdal-servers

Source: heimdal
Package: heimdal-servers-x

Source: inetutils
Package: inetutils-talkd

Source: inetutils
Package: inetutils-telnetd

Source: uw-imap
Package: ipopd

Package: isdnutils

Source: isdnutils
Package: isdnvboxserver

Source: krb5
Package: krb5-ftpd

Source: krb5
Package: krb5-rsh-server

Source: krb5
Package: krb5-telnetd

Source: ldm
Package: ldm-server

Package: leafnode

Source: ltsp
Package: ltsp-server-standalone

Package: micro-httpd

Package: midentd

Package: node

Source: cernlib
Package: pawserv

Package: pidentd

Source: proftpd-dfsg
Package: proftpd-basic

Package: qpopper

Source: qpopper
Package: qpopper-drac

Source: remctl
Package: remctl-server

Source: rsh-redone
Package: rsh-redone-server

Source: netkit-rsh
Package: rsh-server

Package: rstatd

Source: netkit-rwall
Package: rwalld

Package: sendfile

Package: skksearch

Package: sn

Source: samba
Package: swat

Source: netkit-ntalk
Package: talkd

Source: netkit-telnet
Package: telnetd

Source: netkit-telnet-ssl
Package: telnetd-ssl

Source: netkit-tftp
Package: tftpd

Package: uucp

Source: uw-imap
Package: uw-imapd

Source: wipl
Package: wipl-client-inetd

Package: xfingerd

Package: xtel

--
O Pierre Habouzit
O madcoder@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org
 
Old 03-10-2009, 02:35 AM
Steve Langasek
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 08:06:16PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> Just looking at the packages requiring an inet superserver, you'll see that
> it's probably that nowadays users don't need a superserver at all[0].

Yes, and many users no longer have a superserver installed for that reason.

> I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
> goal for squeeze.

Why? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Having a superserver installed isn't
broken. Why should every daemon have to implement connection handling when
they can offload that to the inetd?

Demoting inetd from standard to optional seems to me like a reasonable
release goal; that doesn't require patching lots of upstream code that works
just fine the way it is already. In fact, AFAICS it doesn't require
patching any of our packages.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org


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Old 03-10-2009, 05:31 AM
Luk Claes
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 08:06:16PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:

>> I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
>> goal for squeeze.
>
> Why? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Having a superserver installed isn't
> broken. Why should every daemon have to implement connection handling when
> they can offload that to the inetd?
>
> Demoting inetd from standard to optional seems to me like a reasonable
> release goal; that doesn't require patching lots of upstream code that works
> just fine the way it is already. In fact, AFAICS it doesn't require
> patching any of our packages.

Right, isn't that the proposal: demote inetd and update-inetd to
optional/extra?

Btw, lots of packages are depending on update-inetd while it's
guaranteed to be available when depending on inet-superserver.

Cheers

Luk


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Old 03-10-2009, 05:39 AM
Steve Langasek
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 07:31:35AM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> Steve Langasek wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 08:06:16PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:

> >> I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
> >> goal for squeeze.

> > Why? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Having a superserver installed isn't
> > broken. Why should every daemon have to implement connection handling when
> > they can offload that to the inetd?

> > Demoting inetd from standard to optional seems to me like a reasonable
> > release goal; that doesn't require patching lots of upstream code that works
> > just fine the way it is already. In fact, AFAICS it doesn't require
> > patching any of our packages.

> Right, isn't that the proposal: demote inetd and update-inetd to
> optional/extra?

Perhaps I misunderstood, but I read this as a proposal to make /use/ of
inetd optional for the packages that currently depend on it.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org


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Old 03-10-2009, 06:44 AM
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On Mar 10, Luk Claes <luk@debian.org> wrote:

> Btw, lots of packages are depending on update-inetd while it's
> guaranteed to be available when depending on inet-superserver.
Indeed, this is broken. IIRC some helpful soul started reporting "bugs"
asking to depend on update-inetd too...

--
ciao,
Marco
 
Old 03-10-2009, 06:48 AM
Thijs Kinkhorst
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On moandei 9 Maart 2009, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> Just looking at the packages requiring an inet superserver, you'll see that
> it's probably that nowadays users don't need a superserver at all[0].
>
> I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
> goal for squeeze.

Yes, I think it would make sense to make them priority optional. Currently the
standard installation does not include any active services so inetd just
lingers around doing nothing. Demoting it to optional will do the right
thing, installing a super server just in time: when you're also installing
some package depending on it.


cheers,
Thijs
 
Old 03-10-2009, 10:13 AM
"Francesco P. Lovergine"
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 08:44:06AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Mar 10, Luk Claes <luk@debian.org> wrote:
>
> > Btw, lots of packages are depending on update-inetd while it's
> > guaranteed to be available when depending on inet-superserver.
> Indeed, this is broken. IIRC some helpful soul started reporting "bugs"
> asking to depend on update-inetd too...
>

That remembers me a point: maybe it makes sense having a debhelper
dh_ script to manage automagically the call to update-inetd when available
or eventually warn the user to install update-inetd and update
inetd/xinetd configuration manually, when update-inetd is NOT available.
That would avoid to depend on update-inetd or inet-superserver at all
Having a snippet of code like that replicated for every package is pointless.
Also, update-inetd is a very partial solution for managing superserver
configurations, but that's another problem...

--
Francesco P. Lovergine


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Old 03-10-2009, 09:39 PM
Pierre Habouzit
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 06:39:23AM +0000, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 07:31:35AM +0100, Luk Claes wrote:
> > Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 08:06:16PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
>
> > >> I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
> > >> goal for squeeze.
>
> > > Why? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Having a superserver installed isn't
> > > broken. Why should every daemon have to implement connection handling when
> > > they can offload that to the inetd?
>
> > > Demoting inetd from standard to optional seems to me like a reasonable
> > > release goal; that doesn't require patching lots of upstream code that works
> > > just fine the way it is already. In fact, AFAICS it doesn't require
> > > patching any of our packages.
>
> > Right, isn't that the proposal: demote inetd and update-inetd to
> > optional/extra?
>
> Perhaps I misunderstood, but I read this as a proposal to make /use/ of
> inetd optional for the packages that currently depend on it.

That's probably because of my broken english because what luk and you
said was what I proposed: demote inetd to extra/optionnal instead of
standard. It could make space on the CDs to more useful stuff e.g.
--
O Pierre Habouzit
O madcoder@debian.org
OOO http://www.madism.org
 
Old 03-10-2009, 11:00 PM
Roger Leigh
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

On Mon, Mar 09, 2009 at 08:06:16PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
> Most machines nowadays have enough memory, and most daemons provide a
> standalone mode (I mean who configures apache as an inetd service ?).

> Just looking at the packages requiring an inet superserver, you'll see that
> it's probably that nowadays users don't need a superserver at all[0].
>
> I'm wondering if making super servers become optionnal wouldn't be a worthy
> goal for squeeze.

I agree with this goal. One major lack in our current inetd support is
for services which should run on IPv6 (tcp6 and udp6). While the
current default inetd (openbsd-inetd) can support IPv6, in practice
no maintainer scripts are actually adding tcp6/udp6 lines to inetd.conf
in addition to tcp/udp lines. Additionally, not all inetds support
IPv6, so adding these lines will break some inetds.

While packages requiring inetd support will of course need to keep
inetd around, it would be nice if packages offering both inetd and
standalone operation could drop inetd support in favour of standalone
operation only (since starting up the server every time for e.g.
apache and even services like proftpd is less efficient than just
having the dmon sleep when not in use).


Regards,
Roger

--
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: :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://people.debian.org/~rleigh/
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:12 AM
Lars Wirzenius
 
Default inetd's status in Debian

ke, 2009-03-11 kello 00:00 +0000, Roger Leigh kirjoitti:
> Additionally, not all inetds support
> IPv6, so adding these lines will break some inetds.

Should we consider lack of IPv6 support as a bug?

Ah yes, it's been a release goal since etch.



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