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Old 02-26-2009, 11:13 PM
Holger Levsen
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

Hi Jg,

On Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> As Lenny is finally released, and we are early in the cycle for squeeze,
> now is the best time to do some long-needed changes to our archive.
[...]

Cool, nice!

> The new sections are:

I think an r section would be useful, there are already 131 (binary packages)
in lenny and around thousand around the corner, I've heard

> video

mplayer*
vswitch*


regards,
Holger
 
Old 02-27-2009, 12:02 AM
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> writes:

> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.

As I mentioned directly to override-change before encountering this
message, I'd argue that my goo package is a (somewhat exotic)
candidate. In general, here's a first cut at a full list, including
it and your initial proposals:

albert
cl-*
clisp*
cmucl*
common-lisp-controller
drscheme
elib
elk
gambc
gauche*
gcl*
goo
guile-*
lush*
mzscheme
oaklisp
plt-scheme
sawfish-lisp-source
sbcl*
scm
scheme2c
scheme48
scsh*
sigscheme
slib
slime
stalin
tinyscheme
xml-to-sexp
*-el
*-elisp
*-lisp

Thanks!

BTW, while compiling that list, I also ran across a couple more
httpds: araneida and hunchentoot.

--
Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org)
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:07 AM
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> writes:

> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.

One more: ikarus (which I initially overlooked because it's only
available on i386 :-/).

--
Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org)
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:08 AM
Kelly Clowers
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 15:50, Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> wrote:
> Le jeudi 26 fvrier 2009 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a crit :
>> ruby * * * * * * * * * * Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>> * * * * * * * * * * * * *language.
>> java * * * * * * * * * * Everything about Java
>
> How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
> Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
> packages now.

Am I the only one that gets confused by the name "cli"? I always
think "command line interface" first and mono/.net second.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Old 02-27-2009, 12:13 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

Le jeudi 26 février 2009 * 17:08 -0800, Kelly Clowers a écrit :
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 15:50, Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org> wrote:
> > Le jeudi 26 février 2009 * 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> >> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
> >> language.
> >> java Everything about Java
> >
> > How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
> > Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
> > packages now.
>
> Am I the only one that gets confused by the name "cli"? I always
> think "command line interface" first and mono/.net second.

I don’t like the name either, but can you think of a better one? We
could use “mono”, but it’s the implementation name.

--
.'`. Debian 5.0 "Lenny" has been released!
: :' :
`. `' Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
`- me that if you don't install Lenny, he'd melt your brain.
 
Old 02-27-2009, 12:19 AM
Sam Morris
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:13:48 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:

> Le jeudi 26 février 2009 * 17:08 -0800, Kelly Clowers a écrit :
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 15:50, Josselin Mouette <joss@debian.org>
>> wrote:
>> > Le jeudi 26 février 2009 * 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
>> >> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted
>> >> object oriented
>> >> language.
>> >> java Everything about Java
>> >
>> > How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
>> > Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number
>> > of packages now.
>>
>> Am I the only one that gets confused by the name "cli"? I always think
>> "command line interface" first and mono/.net second.
>
> I don’t like the name either, but can you think of a better one? We
> could use “mono”, but it’s the implementation name.

'clr' (common language runtime)? It's the acronym that MS uses quite a
bit.

Or 'msclr'? 'dotnetclr'?

--
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:49 AM
Daniel Moerner
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Aaron M. Ucko <ucko@debian.org> wrote:
> Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> writes:
>
>> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
>> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.
>
> As I mentioned directly to override-change before encountering this
> message, I'd argue that my goo package is a (somewhat exotic)
> candidate. *In general, here's a first cut at a full list, including
> it and your initial proposals:
>

There is one more currently in Debian:

chicken-bin

There is also one sitting in NEW (a secondary priority):

ypsilon

scheme9 has an ITP against it as well...


mzscheme and drscheme are just plt-scheme transitional packages by now


This will certainly make it easier to centralize all the different
Scheme interpreters. (And this reminds me...someone should package
r6rs-doc)

--
Daniel Moerner <dmoerner@gmail.com>


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Old 02-27-2009, 01:00 AM
Enrico Zini
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

> While we acknowledge that something like debtags will make a better
> long-term solution, we do not think that it is ready yet to completly
> replace sections (e.g. because it isn't assured that all packages have
> tags). This is why we chose to go ahead and adjust what we have,
> instead of hoping that debtags can mature enough in time for squeeze.

There are other issues that make debtags not quite suitable to replace
sections: for example, the workflow is different. Sections are chosen
by maintainers and ftp-masters, while tags are chosen by a mix of
people. With the number of tags in the vocabulary approacing 600, we
just can't ask maintainer, ftp-masters, noone really, to know all of
them, and to know how and when to use them properly.


> The new sections are:
> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
> language.
> java Everything about Java
> video Video viewers, editors, recording, streaming
> fonts Font packages
> gnustep The Gnustep environment
> xfce The XFCE Desktop, fast and lightweight Desktop
> Environment.
> httpd Webservers and their modules
> localisations Language packs
> debug Debug packages
> lisp Everything about Lisp
> vcs Version control systems
> haskell Everything about haskell
> zope Zope/Plone Framework
> database Databases
> kernel Kernel and Kernel modules

I would like to consider this an opportunity to use sections to encode
something that fits with their workflow, that is: can we use sections to
carry information that only the maintainer and ftp-master can fill in,
or information for which it's safe and good that maintainer and
ftp-masters have the last say?

I noticed that most of the replies to this message are a run to add
one's favourite section to the list. Are you sure that you want to go
in that direction? Where would it lead except to having a poorer
version of debtags?

Some of the current sections *are* useful. 'libs' is useful. 'oldlibs'
is *very* useful, and I'd like to make a Debian QA tag "depends on a
library with section 'oldlibs'", once I find a nice algorithm to compute
the set of packages for it. I'm happy that 'locali[sz]ations' and
'debug' are added.

All of these section group packages with very specific semanthics: a
package manager can hide 'libs' and 'oldlibs', can provide a special way
to install 'debug' packages corresponding to normal packages currently
installed. Can offer a list of 'localisation' options for currently
installed packages. Can warn when trying to install a package that
depends on an 'oldlibs' library, or if given a choice between an
'oldlibs' dependency and another one, pick the other one. 'oldlibs'
could be renamed to 'deprecated', come to think of it, and include
packages that are not libraries but that are still around until we
manage to get rid of them.

'text' is useless, and probably 'video' is going to be useless as well.
Debtags is what you would use for that information. Putting java
libraries into 'java' instead of 'libs' would just make it harder for a
package manager to hide libraries. Debtags will work for that,
so no big deal, but at the moment 'libs' is nice because it allows me to
auto-tag packages from that section, based on reliable information
provided by the maintainers.

Let's find more semantically sound sections. For example, a section
"fringe", that the maintainer can use to signal that the package is
being used, but only by few people or in specific environments or
fields. We could give specific suggestions on how to consider such
packages, for example we could suggest not to openly expose to the
internet a 'fringe' server, even if it has no open security bugs. Or
given the choice between a 'fringe' dependency and another one, prefer
the other one.

How about a section for packages that are not maintained upstream
anymore?

Another one could be a 'data' section for "$FOO-data" packages, like
game data, that are always pulled in as dependencies and do not make
sense alone. Another thing with a clear semanthic, and that for example
package managers could comfortably hide.

I hope I didn't take a tangent that is too weird to make sense. But
given the premise that sections are useless, rather than just make them
more diversely useless, I'd prefer to twist them a bit into something
else.


Ciao,

Enrico

--
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:04 AM
Darren Salt
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

I demand that Joerg Jaspert may or may not have written...

[snip]
> The initial set of packages moved into the new sections will be found
> using the following matches:
[snip]
> video
[snip]
> *xine*

Slightly over-broad, unless you want to move library packages too (but I see
that that's mentioned in other follow-ups).

You also want totem* and kaffeine*.

*-dbg packages could go in their own section(s) (debug, or libdebug &
appdebug?); otherwise, I think that they should remain with (the bulk of) the
packages for which they provide debug data.

[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Output less CO2 => avoid boiling weather. TIME IS RUNNING OUT *FAST*.

I detect bikeshedding in progress.


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Old 02-27-2009, 01:10 AM
Darren Salt
 
Default Upcoming Section changes in the archive

I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...

> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
>> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

> Great.

>> The new sections are:
> [...]
>> localisations Language packs

> I'd prefer "localization".

Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...

> - We use en_US in general -> "ize"

... unless you're localising for en_US. OTOH, given that that section is for
localisation, "localization" is probably right, being localised...

("-ize" isn't actually wrong here, but it looks too American to us so we use
"-ise" even where it *is* wrong; thus it ends up becoming right.)

[snip]
> What about packages like libcvs-perl or libgit-ruby? Do they stay with the
> language or move to this new category?

ISTM that they should stay with the language, but I can see why they might be
moved. There's a good argument there for having them belong to two sections,
but that's why debtags exists.

--
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| <URL:http://www.youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk/progs.packages.html>

Resist the insidious influence of the evil American corruption of English!


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