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Andreas Tille 02-26-2009 10:36 AM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009, David Paleino wrote:


What about making all environments out there support the freedesktop.org
standard instead?


The situation is different. It is not that all environments support
Debian menu but many of them invented their own menu system. The Debian
Menu system just provides scripts to translate a common (Debian invented)
format to support each specific menu system. So the correct formulation
of your suggestion is: "What about porting all these scripts to use
freedesktop.org format input and at the same time fix all packages that
only have a menu but no desktop file."

You will never manage to "force" upstream authors of different environments
to support freedesktop.org standard because you have no handle to force
anybody in Free Software.

Kind regards

Andreas.

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Josselin Mouette 02-26-2009 10:38 AM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
Le jeudi 26 février 2009 Ã* 11:12 +0000, Tzafrir Cohen a écrit :
> The "Settings" top menu is now mostly unusable, as it is one long list that
> includes both KDE and GNOME settings.

And it will, as long as the KDE maintainers don’t fix their
broken .desktop entries to add the missing OnlyShowIn entries.

http://bugs.debian.org/478286

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David Paleino 02-26-2009 10:57 AM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:36:07 +0100 (CET), Andreas Tille wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009, David Paleino wrote:
>
> > What about making all environments out there support the freedesktop.org
> > standard instead?
>
> The situation is different. It is not that all environments support
> Debian menu but many of them invented their own menu system. The Debian
> Menu system just provides scripts to translate a common (Debian invented)
> format to support each specific menu system.

Ok.

> So the correct formulation of your suggestion is: "What about porting all
> these scripts to use freedesktop.org format input

Then we can drop "menu" files, in favour of .desktop ones.

> and at the same time fix all packages that only have a menu but no desktop
> file."

This could easily be added as a lintian check, I believe.

> You will never manage to "force" upstream authors of different environments
> to support freedesktop.org standard because you have no handle to force
> anybody in Free Software.

Sure you can't, but standards exist for this reason. And sane upstreams would
certainly adhere to standards.

Ciao,
David

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Charles Plessy 02-26-2009 11:26 AM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
Le Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:02:29PM +0100, Andreas Tille a écrit :
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009, Sune Vuorela wrote:
>
>> I am considering starting a discussion within the KDE team to stop
>> supporting the Debian Menu.
>>
>> It becomes more and more useless - and it is also very ugly, as the menu
>> itself specifies icons that are nonexistant in all icon themes.
>
> This discussion comes up once or twice per year.

Hi all,

forgive me for repeating always the same thing once or twice a year ;)

I think that the Debian Menu should use the fd.o Destkop menu entry format.
This would already unify a lot both systems, and simplify packages as we could
then contribute many .desktop files upstream and move them out of the Debian
part of our source packages.

The formats are not as dissimilar as one can think at first:
http://wiki.debian.org/Proposals/DebianMenuUsingDesktopEntries

I am unable to help for the programatic part, but I do volunteer to give a
significant part of my Debian time to help the transition.

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Matthew Johnson 02-26-2009 12:13 PM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
On Thu Feb 26 12:57, David Paleino wrote:
> > You will never manage to "force" upstream authors of different environments
> > to support freedesktop.org standard because you have no handle to force
> > anybody in Free Software.
>
> Sure you can't, but standards exist for this reason. And sane upstreams would
> certainly adhere to standards.

Since when are all upstreams sane?

Matt

--
Matthew Johnson

Darren Salt 02-26-2009 01:38 PM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
I demand that José Luis Redrejo Rodríguez may or may not have written...

[snip]
> I don't think removing Debian menu is a good idea, as many people are still
> using it, but when you're using a freedesktop.org environment, this menu is
> really ugly, useless and duplicating entries.

There are some of us who prefer the Debian menu over the freedesktop.org one;
in my case, it's down to the layout of one (used to it) _and_ content missing
from the other.

[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Burn less waste. Use less packaging. Waste less. USE FEWER RESOURCES.

We don't really understand it, so we'll give it to the programmers.


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David Paleino 02-26-2009 01:53 PM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 13:13:31 +0000, Matthew Johnson wrote:

> On Thu Feb 26 12:57, David Paleino wrote:
> > > You will never manage to "force" upstream authors of different
> > > environments to support freedesktop.org standard because you have no
> > > handle to force anybody in Free Software.
> >
> > Sure you can't, but standards exist for this reason. And sane upstreams
> > would certainly adhere to standards.
>
> Since when are all upstreams sane?

I admit that's my secret dream *g* :)

David

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Bernd Zeimetz 02-26-2009 11:24 PM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Andreas Tille wrote:

> This discussion comes up once or twice per year. In most cases it is
> triggered by users of freedesktop.org based environments. They fail to
> see the fact that there are other environments which do not support
> freedesktop.org standards and in this case Debian menu makes
> perfectly sense.

Then the best way is to fix these environments to use freedesktop.org standards,
or to create a "debian" compatible menu for them out of the informations
provided via *.desktop and similar files. I can't see the sense in spenting time
to write a .dekstop file for an application *and* a menu file. That's just a
waste of time. Nothing against supporting old-fashioned environments, but please
use methonds from 2009 to do so.

Thanks,

Bernd

- --
Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer
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Russ Allbery 02-27-2009 01:08 AM

LXDE doesnt support Debian Menu
 
David Paleino <d.paleino@gmail.com> writes:
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:36:07 +0100 (CET), Andreas Tille wrote:

>> and at the same time fix all packages that only have a menu but no
>> desktop file."

> This could easily be added as a lintian check, I believe.

FWIW, the reason why Lintian doesn't have such a check is because of
previous rants on debian-devel about how horrible the menu entries are and
how they don't want that stuff in the freedesktop.org menu.

What I think we really need here is some clear proposal that specifies:

* What programs should get a menu entry?
* What categorization of menu entries should be used?
* How do check programs correctly verify the menu files in the package?
* How do systems that don't use freedesktop.org build menus?

If we're going to follow the freedesktop.org standard, that would be
great, but it should be permissible to then mass-file bugs on packages
that provide .desktop files and don't follow the standard (which, I'll
warn, is a lot of them). Right now, there's quite a lot of mess in the
.desktop files, categories that aren't listed in the standard, and so
forth.

I personally would be quite happy to see elimination of the menu *file
format* in favor of .desktop files on the grounds that the fewer
Debian-specific things we invent, the better. However, the *capability*
of the menu system for non-freedesktop.org environments needs to be
preserved somehow. If we can do that by converting freedesktop.org
.desktop files to the existing menu methods, I think that's a fine
solution, but the .desktop files will need to support roughly the same set
of features.

I think this is an entirely doable project, but I also think it's a lot of
work, and a lot of the work is in putting together a clear proposal and
getting consensus. Right now, my impression is that no one is really
doing that and instead just implementing what they feel looks best in
their environment with the applications that they get bug reports about,
which is resulting in a lot of chaos and inconsistency.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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