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Old 02-25-2009, 04:55 PM
Vincent Bernat
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

OoO Pendant le temps de midi du mercredi 25 février 2009, vers 12:45,
martin f krafft <madduck@debconf.org> disait*:

> In eleven years of DebConf history, this will be the first time
> that the Debian developer conference takes place in the United
> States of America, which had been avoided in previous years due to
> visa and other immigration issues. The NYC team had addressed those
> issues from the very start and submitted a very convincing bid.

Out of curiosity, how those issues will be handled?
--
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- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)
 
Old 02-25-2009, 05:39 PM
Cyril Brulebois
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

Vincent Bernat <bernat@debian.org> (25/02/2009):
> Out of curiosity, how those issues will be handled?

Obvi: Covert channels.

Mraw,
KiBi.
 
Old 02-25-2009, 06:31 PM
Jimmy Kaplowitz
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

(Please CC me on responses - I'm not subscribed to debian-devel currently.)

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 06:55:22PM +0100, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> OoO Pendant le temps de midi du mercredi 25 février 2009, vers 12:45,
> martin f krafft <madduck@debconf.org> disait*:
>
> > In eleven years of DebConf history, this will be the first time
> > that the Debian developer conference takes place in the United
> > States of America, which had been avoided in previous years due to
> > visa and other immigration issues. The NYC team had addressed those
> > issues from the very start and submitted a very convincing bid.
>
> Out of curiosity, how those issues will be handled?

Martin may have left the wrong impression. We don't have the issues fully
solved, and of course can no more make guarantees that there won't be visa or
border hassles than the Mexico local team was able to for DebConf6 (the first
year where visas became an issue). What he meant was that we've started
discussing, researching, and explaining the issues; building connections with
people who can help us navigate the bureaucracy and figure out the real truth;
and planning ways to reduce the hassles and ease the paperwork of getting any
necessary visa and then entering the US.

We have some information from during the bid process here:
http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/NewYork/VisaAndBorderIssues

The Boston bid, which also would have been in the US, has a few additional thoughts on their bid page:
http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/Boston#Visa.2FImmigration.2FLocale_Issues

Further, we're definitely going to be giving people invitation letters and
other advice to make sure they present themselves in the best (accurate) light
they can to the visa or border officials, as well as separate exaggeration from
fact with regard to border search and other privacy concerns so that people can
make rational decisions based on reality instead of sensationalism. More
details will be provided at the DebConf10 presentation in Caceres at DebConf9,
if not sooner.

- Jimmy Kaplowitz
jimmy@debian.org


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Old 02-25-2009, 07:08 PM
Patrick Ouellette
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

With respect to visa issues, early application is always a good ideal.
I work for a US government agency that hosts international guests for
training three to four times a year. We usually don't know who is going
to show up until we actually see the people arrive on the first day of
training. This is usually due to trying to rush the visa process.

If someone *thinks* they want to attend DebConf10, I suggest they commit
to attending and apply for a visa sooner rather than later. It just makes
things easier. This advice applies anytime a visa is needed to visit any
country, not just the USA.

Pat

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Old 02-25-2009, 07:29 PM
Victor H De la Luz
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Patrick Ouellette <pouelle@debian.org> wrote:
>
> With respect to visa issues, early application is always a good ideal.
> I work for a US government agency that hosts international guests for
> training three to four times a year. *We usually don't know who is going
> to show up until we actually see the people arrive on the first day of
> training. *This is usually due to trying to rush the visa process.
>
> If someone *thinks* they want to attend DebConf10, I suggest they commit
> to attending and apply for a visa sooner rather than later. *It just makes
> things easier. *This advice applies anytime a visa is needed to visit any
> country, not just the USA.
>
> Pat
>
> --
>
> Patrick Ouellette * * * * * * * * pat@flying-gecko.net
> ne4po (at) arrl (dot) net * * * * Amateur Radio: NE4PO
> "Crank the amp to 11, this needs more cowbell - and a llama wouldn't hurt either"
> "Your arguments are an odd mix of overly optimistic on one side and overly
> pessimistic on the other"
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>

And if you are rejected, then always exists the mexican "coyotes" to
cross the border (is a joke but is real)...

--
ItZtLi


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Old 02-25-2009, 08:42 PM
AtomCell
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

hi all,
if you need a visa to the USA, just ask the NY team to send you an invitation (if possible from an association).
the invitation should be addressed to your company (so ask your company to support you).

ask also the NY team to send a copy of this invitation to your local US embassy.
kind regards
hatem




On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Victor H De la Luz <itztli@gmail.com> wrote:



On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Patrick Ouellette <pouelle@debian.org> wrote:

>

> With respect to visa issues, early application is always a good ideal.

> I work for a US government agency that hosts international guests for

> training three to four times a year. *We usually don't know who is going

> to show up until we actually see the people arrive on the first day of

> training. *This is usually due to trying to rush the visa process.

>

> If someone *thinks* they want to attend DebConf10, I suggest they commit

> to attending and apply for a visa sooner rather than later. *It just makes

> things easier. *This advice applies anytime a visa is needed to visit any

> country, not just the USA.

>

> Pat

>

> --

>

> Patrick Ouellette * * * * * * * * pat@flying-gecko.net

> ne4po (at) arrl (dot) net * * * * Amateur Radio: NE4PO

> "Crank the amp to 11, this needs more cowbell - and a llama wouldn't hurt either"

> "Your arguments are an odd mix of overly optimistic on one side and overly

> pessimistic on the other"

>

>

> --

> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org

> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org

>

>



And if you are rejected, then always exists the mexican "coyotes" to

cross the border (is a joke but is real)...



--

ItZtLi





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Old 02-26-2009, 07:08 AM
Mike Hommey
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 02:31:24PM -0500, Jimmy Kaplowitz wrote:
> Further, we're definitely going to be giving people invitation letters and
> other advice to make sure they present themselves in the best (accurate) light
> they can to the visa or border officials, as well as separate exaggeration from
> fact with regard to border search and other privacy concerns so that people can
> make rational decisions based on reality instead of sensationalism.

Sensationalism like
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/08/us_government_p.html
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/05/crossing_border.html
?

Mike


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Old 02-26-2009, 05:55 PM
dan
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

On Thursday 26 February 2009 08:08:50 Mike Hommey wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 02:31:24PM -0500, Jimmy Kaplowitz wrote:
> > Further, we're definitely going to be giving people invitation
> > letters and other advice to make sure they present themselves in
> > the best (accurate) light they can to the visa or border officials,
> > as well as separate exaggeration from fact with regard to border
> > search and other privacy concerns so that people can make rational
> > decisions based on reality instead of sensationalism.
>
> Sensationalism like
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/08/us_government_p.html
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/05/crossing_border.html
> ?
Mr. Hommey,
I doubt Mr. Kaplowitz has the power to do anything much about the issues
you use someone elses blog to bring into the conversation, no doubt you
have more clout to shape the french governments policies.
I would like to share this with you though. Ten years ago I married an
English lady and moved to the UK. I didn't bring my computers with me as
i planned to buy some when I settled, I did however bring disks, linux
cd's, etc. Immigration here insisted on knowing where my computers were
so that that they could inspect them...whether I had shipped them ahead
or they were coming later. It took hours and hours. I found the whole
matter very comical on one one hand and very sad on the other. This was
some ten years ago and pre 9/11. My point is, in case you missed it, is
that the United States is not the only country in the world who has such
policies in place. If you doubt my point, stick your laptop in a
backback and come over to the UK.

I've used Debian for about ten years now, always been proud to say I
used it. In the course of the past few years though, the bickering on
the lists (particularly the political cheap shot like you just took)
have really worn on me. As I said, I'm just a normal user. Nobody
important, I mainly just read the list, help out at my local lug with
Debian installs and recommend Debian to everyone that asks about linux.
Your post though is pretty much the straw that broke the camels back. I
want to read and talk about linux and Debian.
Until DD's like you learn to leave the political sht at the door and
just discuss issues relevant to Debian, I'm off to another distrobution.
And don't worry, I won't let the door hit me in the ass on the way out.





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Old 02-26-2009, 09:14 PM
Russell Coker
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, dan <d.e.d.linux.lists@gmx.co.uk> wrote:
> > > search and other privacy concerns so that people can make rational
> > > decisions based on reality instead of sensationalism.
> >
> > Sensationalism like
> > http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/08/us_government_p.html
> > http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/05/crossing_border.html
> > ?
>
> I would like to share this with you though. Ten years ago I married an
> English lady and moved to the UK. I didn't bring my computers with me as
> i planned to buy some when I settled, I did however bring disks, linux
> cd's, etc. Immigration here insisted on knowing where my computers were
> so that that they could inspect them...whether I had shipped them ahead
> or they were coming later. It took hours and hours. I found the whole
> matter very comical on one one hand and very sad on the other. This was
> some ten years ago and pre 9/11. My point is, in case you missed it, is
> that the United States is not the only country in the world who has such
> policies in place. If you doubt my point, stick your laptop in a
> backback and come over to the UK.

I have entered the UK by plane several times before 911 and many times
afterwards. I have entered the UK via the chunnel many more times. On every
occasion I had at least one laptop, sometimes I had multiple laptops, a PDA,
or even a Cobalt Qube. I always had enough computer gear to stand out from
the crowd. On no occasion did the UK border security people pay any
particular attention to such devices.

While it is well known that the UK have laws and policies that permit them to
search laptops etc, my experience suggests that such searches are performed
in only a small minority of cases. They have however vacuumed my pockets for
traces of drugs which I think is grossly wrong. If for example I had
received as change some money with drug traces then I could have had some
problems. IMHO any quantity of drugs that is too small to get high should
not be illegal (as a separate issue I think that the war on drugs is entirely
bad and should be stopped).

My experience on entering the US (which I did many times before and after 911)
was that they sometimes want me to turn my laptop on but never to get past
the boot screen. They have never wanted to seize or search computer gear.

I conclude that both the UK and the US search computers quite rarely. That
said, it would really suck to be subject to the type of search that Bruce
describes.

> I've used Debian for about ten years now, always been proud to say I
> used it. In the course of the past few years though, the bickering on
> the lists (particularly the political cheap shot like you just took)
> have really worn on me. As I said, I'm just a normal user. Nobody
> important, I mainly just read the list, help out at my local lug with
> Debian installs and recommend Debian to everyone that asks about linux.
> Your post though is pretty much the straw that broke the camels back. I
> want to read and talk about linux and Debian.
> Until DD's like you learn to leave the political sht at the door and
> just discuss issues relevant to Debian, I'm off to another distrobution.
> And don't worry, I won't let the door hit me in the ass on the way out.

It's not political shit, it's a fair warning about a government policy that
could disadvantage some DDs while travelling to an official Debian event.

I agree that it would be off-topic for debian-user. As you describe yourself
as a user you might find that list to be more suitable to your needs.

--
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http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog
http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog


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Old 02-28-2009, 12:26 AM
Gunnar Wolf
 
Default DebConf10 to take place in New York City, USA

Jimmy Kaplowitz dijo [Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 02:31:24PM -0500]:
> Martin may have left the wrong impression. We don't have the issues fully
> solved, and of course can no more make guarantees that there won't be visa or
> border hassles than the Mexico local team was able to for DebConf6 (the first
> year where visas became an issue).

Not only, might I add, DC6 was the first time the visas were an issue,
it was the first time also (at least as far as the organizers could
know) that people were left out because of the visa situation. Recall
that, i.e., DC4 (@Brazil) posed a problematic visa issuing situation
-precisely- for USAmericans, as Brazil has this polemic (but IMHO
great) reciprocity system, whereas Mexico appears to have decided to
become a screening door for the USA - We didn't expect the visa
requirements to be an issue at all, and even having all the needed
connections (my wife was at the time speaking on an almost-daily
basis with the Foreign Relations Secretary's personal assistant, and
not even that did the trick) we ended up... With a mess that left some
people in the cold.

But still, that experience showed us quite a bit. And yes, we are now
(I was not involved in DC8, but at least for DC7) receiving some
applications from people clearly looking only for a way to get entry
to a more developed country. And as an organization, DebConf (which
means, Debian) must be careful to check that all visa tramits we
process are _really_ for people interested in working for Debian. (And
going legally back home!)

> Further, we're definitely going to be giving people invitation letters and
> other advice to make sure they present themselves in the best (accurate) light
> they can to the visa or border officials, as well as separate exaggeration from
> fact with regard to border search and other privacy concerns so that people can
> make rational decisions based on reality instead of sensationalism. More
> details will be provided at the DebConf10 presentation in Caceres at DebConf9,
> if not sooner.

One source of confusion in Mexico was that people said at the Mexican
embassy they were travelling "for a conference". Stupid as it might
sound, that meant they were coming "on business", and it was a PITA to
convince the Foreign Relations people that we were _NOT_ for profit,
and neither were any of you. Jimmy, I advise you to triple-check if
that it is the best way to help the visa process, or whether we should
all apply as "tourists-and-nothing-else". After all, quite a bit of
people go as tourists to NY, so nothing fishy there.

--
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PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF


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