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Old 02-14-2009, 05:51 PM
Filipus Klutiero
 
Default Should Debian Live be supported with lenny?

Hi,
according to the current lenny release notes, Debian Live is going to become
official with lenny for x86. I tried Debian Live several times and always had
issues with it. So, I decided to test Debian Live a bit and found that
several issues still applied. I discussed with Daniel Baumann about some
issues, and the following seem to be relevant:

Apparently innocuous error popup after KDE is started.
Fails to boot from hard disk (disk1).
Empty F8 screen.
The latest image I downloaded still has an old problem, failures at shutdown.
Daniel replied this one would be fixed either for r0 or r1.

As for the rest:

The manual is under heavy construction.

The latest version, RC1, didn't receive much testing.

There is no bug tracker.

There is no integration in debian.org yet.
Quoting my discussion with Daniel:
I wrote:
> > > It seems there are infrastructure issues. The
> > > distribution servers don't seem redundant.
> >
> > cdimage.debian.org is the main distribution point. live.debian.net is
> > just for snapshots.
>
> Good, though I still don't see any link to cdimage.debian.org.


Since I only did moderate testing of
http://live.debian.net/cdimage/lenny-builds/current/i386/iso-cd/debian-Lenny-Live-rc1-i386-kde-desktop.iso
(I didn't try live-helper or anything yet), I'm wondering if Debian Live
already has the quality we want to associate with Debian. And since there's
no bug tracker, it's hard to look at other people's experiences. Did others
notice other important issues with Debian Live? Do you think it should become
official? If you have an opinion, please give it on
http://doodle.com/participation.html?pollId=rt5qfvmv3zuuauwe


Note on the decision to make Debian Live official
The Debian Live paragraph in the release notes can be seen here:
http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/i386/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html#live

W. Martin Borgert added the paragraph coordinating with Daniel Baumann.

Daniel Baumann wrote:
> Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > how/where was it decided that Debian Live would be official
> > (for x86) with lenny?
>
> it was declared as such when we released 5.0 beta1. before that,
> different people from different core teams did express their support for
> that at debconf8, and sam as DPL at debconf7 did the same as well.

Filipus Klutiero

P.S. In case this wouldn't be clear, I am totally in favor of the Debian Live
Project, and my only concern is whether it is of sufficient quality *at this
time*.


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Old 02-15-2009, 10:03 AM
Daniel Baumann
 
Default Should Debian Live be supported with lenny?

Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> Hi,

Hi,

first of all: you are aware that you hit the *worst* possible time of
sending that email when doing it on the *very* *evening* *when* *we*
*are* *actually* *really* *releasing*, especially when everyone knows
that the release is being made that evening.

second, it would have been more than appropriate to CC me for that mail,
and of course also send a CC to debian-live@lists.debian.org.

third, i've took the time to answer your questions when you approached
me with them 10 days ago. however, this appears to have been wasted as
you did not care to attach my answers to the questions you're repeating
here and i apparently (since this post should not left be unanswered
from our side), do have to reiterate it here.

fourthly, apparently you lack the ability to communicate bugs you
experiencing properly. most of your issues do lack any information to
make something useful out of it. also, again, you have never tried to
contact our mailinglist about it at all, nor did you submit any bug
report. bugs do not get solved by mumbling about them in a private mail
(and not following up with required information).

regarding the bugs you are speaking about, note that this is *wasting*
my time i could have used for something better. make sure you have read
the 'how to report bugs' page in the manual i've referenced below and
provide the requested informations, otherwise we will simply refuse any
further communication about the issue.

> according to the current lenny release notes, Debian Live is going to become
> official with lenny for x86. I tried Debian Live several times and always had
> issues with it. So, I decided to test Debian Live a bit and found that
> several issues still applied. I discussed with Daniel Baumann about some
> issues, and the following seem to be relevant:
>
> Apparently innocuous error popup after KDE is started.

you did not mention that 10 days ago, so this one is new.

however, such a statement is as usefull as "doesn't work[tm]". feel free
to send a *useful* bug report with the needed details so that we are
able to understand it.

> Fails to boot from hard disk (disk1).

you did not mention that 10 days ago, so this one is new.

dd'ing a usb-hdd image to a harddisk works the same way as to an usb
stick. this has always been working. stating "doesn't work[tm]" doesn't
help. feel free to send a *useful* bug report with the needed details so
that we are able to understand it.

> Empty F8 screen.

you did not mention that 10 days ago, so this one is new.

this is not actually a bug. in order to have debian-cd and debian-live
images similar, we do use the same organisation of the help screens in
syslinux. however, d-i's f8 content does not apply and we don't have any
usefull content to fill in there, that's why it's nothing there. i'm
sure i could put an 'empty' frame there if desired.

> The latest image I downloaded still has an old problem, failures at shutdown.
> Daniel replied this one would be fixed either for r0 or r1.

that's not precise, i said:

"should be fixed with current live-initramfs in sid/lenny. the last
prebuilds do contain an older version. if not, for r1 then."

for the records: i didn't saw "failures at shutdown" in the last two
month on cd builds, and neither 10 days ago and neither are they today.
if they have happened, they were fixed in newer live-initramfs in late
december (i don't remember from regular builds from before).

additionally, stating "failures" doesn't help. feel free to send a
*useful* bug report with the needed details to understand it.

> As for the rest:
>
> The manual is under heavy construction.

i said: "the manual is about live-helper; that's something completely
different."

it should be immediately clear to anyone that the documentation about
the tool that is used to *build* the images does not bother people that
*use* the image.

> The latest version, RC1, didn't receive much testing.

true, could have been better. we'll improve on making calls to d-d-a and
similar locations more often during the freeze period of squeeze.

> There is no bug tracker.

i mentioned that we do use bugs.debian.org for that.

additionally, we have since 2007-09-23 the following text available:
http://live.debian.net/manual/html/bugs.html

having a pseudo bts package would eventually make sense, but not just
now as the websites (live.d.o or d.o/devel/debian-live) are not done and
thuse the pseudo-package name isn't clear. however, that's a tiny
cosmetic thing if you assign bugs to live-helper or a pseudo-package.

> There is no integration in debian.org yet.

once someone will have the time or even when someone offers to help with
it (*hint*), we'll have above mentioned websites. i don't think that
making 'no integration' out of a missing website under d.o is genuine.

> Quoting my discussion with Daniel:
> I wrote:
>>>> It seems there are infrastructure issues. The
>>>> distribution servers don't seem redundant.
>>> cdimage.debian.org is the main distribution point. live.debian.net is
>>> just for snapshots.
>> Good, though I still don't see any link to cdimage.debian.org.

where do you envision such a link?

> Since I only did moderate testing of
> http://live.debian.net/cdimage/lenny-builds/current/i386/iso-cd/debian-Lenny-Live-rc1-i386-kde-desktop.iso
> (I didn't try live-helper or anything yet), I'm wondering if Debian Live
> already has the quality we want to associate with Debian. And since there's
> no bug tracker, it's hard to look at other people's experiences. Did others
> notice other important issues with Debian Live? Do you think it should become
> official? If you have an opinion, please give it on
> http://doodle.com/participation.html?pollId=rt5qfvmv3zuuauwe
>
>
> Note on the decision to make Debian Live official
> The Debian Live paragraph in the release notes can be seen here:
> http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/i386/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html#live
>
> W. Martin Borgert added the paragraph coordinating with Daniel Baumann.
>
> Daniel Baumann wrote:
>> Filipus Klutiero wrote:
>>> how/where was it decided that Debian Live would be official
>>> (for x86) with lenny?
>> it was declared as such when we released 5.0 beta1. before that,
>> different people from different core teams did express their support for
>> that at debconf8, and sam as DPL at debconf7 did the same as well.
>
> Filipus Klutiero
>
> P.S. In case this wouldn't be clear, I am totally in favor of the Debian Live
> Project, and my only concern is whether it is of sufficient quality *at this
> time*.
>
>

--
Address: Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/


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Old 02-16-2009, 05:31 PM
Filipus Klutiero
 
Default Should Debian Live be supported with lenny?

Le February 15, 2009 06:03:46 am Daniel Baumann, vous avez écrit :
> Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > Hi,
>
> Hi,
>
> first of all: you are aware that you hit the *worst* possible time of
> sending that email when doing it on the *very* *evening* *when* *we*
> *are* *actually* *really* *releasing*, especially when everyone knows
> that the release is being made that evening.
You are aware that Debian Live lenny RC1 was released on *2009-02-09*? I did
not see any announcement of that, so I had to find that it was released by
myself before waiting after the images server pushing around 20 kB/s, and I
still managed to test and open this thread on the *first* week-end day
following the release. I'm not paid to do QA on Debian.
>
> second, it would have been more than appropriate to CC me for that mail,
> and of course also send a CC to debian-live@lists.debian.org.
I meant to CC debian-live but sent the mail too fast.
>
> third, i've took the time to answer your questions when you approached
> me with them 10 days ago. however, this appears to have been wasted as
> you did not care to attach my answers to the questions you're repeating
> here and i apparently (since this post should not left be unanswered
> from our side), do have to reiterate it here.
I asked you 2 questions, one of which I didn't repeat in this thread. I quoted
your answer to the other one at the end of my message.
>
> fourthly, apparently you lack the ability to communicate bugs you
> experiencing properly. most of your issues do lack any information to
> make something useful out of it. also, again, you have never tried to
> contact our mailinglist about it at all, nor did you submit any bug
> report. bugs do not get solved by mumbling about them in a private mail
> (and not following up with required information).
I didn't perceive any request for follow ups in your answers. If I missed one,
I'd be happy to provide the required information if you tell me what you
want.
>
[...]
>
> > according to the current lenny release notes, Debian Live is going to
> > become official with lenny for x86. I tried Debian Live several times and
> > always had issues with it. So, I decided to test Debian Live a bit and
> > found that several issues still applied. I discussed with Daniel Baumann
> > about some issues, and the following seem to be relevant:
> >
> > Apparently innocuous error popup after KDE is started.
>
> you did not mention that 10 days ago, so this one is new.
Indeed, though I see that more as a negative point.
>
> however, such a statement is as usefull as "doesn't work[tm]". feel free
> to send a *useful* bug report with the needed details so that we are
> able to understand it.
The purpose of this thread is not to improve Debian Live. At the time I opened
the thread, time was running out to even take the decision of making Debian
Live official or not.
>
> > Fails to boot from hard disk (disk1).
>
> you did not mention that 10 days ago, so this one is new.
I don't know, I tested RC 1 more than beta 2.
>
> dd'ing a usb-hdd image to a harddisk works the same way as to an usb
> stick. this has always been working. stating "doesn't work[tm]" doesn't
> help. feel free to send a *useful* bug report with the needed details so
> that we are able to understand it.
As above.
>
> > Empty F8 screen.
>
> you did not mention that 10 days ago, so this one is new.
As above, I hadn't tested this with beta 2.
>
> this is not actually a bug. in order to have debian-cd and debian-live
> images similar, we do use the same organisation of the help screens in
> syslinux. however, d-i's f8 content does not apply and we don't have any
> usefull content to fill in there, that's why it's nothing there. i'm
> sure i could put an 'empty' frame there if desired.
Yes. Or don't mention that screen when it's empty. Or both.
>
> > The latest image I downloaded still has an old problem, failures at
> > shutdown. Daniel replied this one would be fixed either for r0 or r1.
>
> that's not precise, i said:
>
> "should be fixed with current live-initramfs in sid/lenny. the last
> prebuilds do contain an older version. if not, for r1 then."
>
> for the records: i didn't saw "failures at shutdown" in the last two
> month on cd builds, and neither 10 days ago and neither are they today.
> if they have happened, they were fixed in newer live-initramfs in late
> december (i don't remember from regular builds from before).
You must have been thinking about different failures then.
>
> additionally, stating "failures" doesn't help. feel free to send a
> *useful* bug report with the needed details to understand it.
As above.
>
> > As for the rest:
> >
> > The manual is under heavy construction.
>
> i said: "the manual is about live-helper; that's something completely
> different."
>
> it should be immediately clear to anyone that the documentation about
> the tool that is used to *build* the images does not bother people that
> *use* the image.
As I replied privately, I was referring to the Live Manual (
http://live.debian.net/manual/ )
>
> > The latest version, RC1, didn't receive much testing.
>
> true, could have been better. we'll improve on making calls to d-d-a and
> similar locations more often during the freeze period of squeeze.
Great.
>
> > There is no bug tracker.
>
> i mentioned that we do use bugs.debian.org for that.
Actually, you replied with "bugs.debian.org?", which sounded like a question
to me.
>
> additionally, we have since 2007-09-23 the following text available:
> http://live.debian.net/manual/html/bugs.html
>
> having a pseudo bts package would eventually make sense, but not just
> now as the websites (live.d.o or d.o/devel/debian-live) are not done and
> thuse the pseudo-package name isn't clear. however, that's a tiny
> cosmetic thing if you assign bugs to live-helper or a pseudo-package.
The bugs aren't (generally) in the websites. security-tracker is a good
example of a pseudo-package that avoids using a domain...even if that one is
a website. "live" is not used. Otherwise, debian-live. I already made a DD
completely mad for assigning a bug report to a package much less inexact than
throwing a random Debian Live bug at live-helper.

[...]
>
> > Quoting my discussion with Daniel:
> >
> > I wrote:
> >>>> It seems there are infrastructure issues. The
> >>>> distribution servers don't seem redundant.
> >>>
> >>> cdimage.debian.org is the main distribution point. live.debian.net is
> >>> just for snapshots.
> >>
> >> Good, though I still don't see any link to cdimage.debian.org.
>
> where do you envision such a link?
I suppose the Download page should link to that, if the Download link doesn't
point there directly.


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Old 02-16-2009, 09:29 PM
Daniel Baumann
 
Default Should Debian Live be supported with lenny?

Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> You are aware that Debian Live lenny RC1 was released on *2009-02-09*?

no, i didn't know that *kidding*

> I did not see any announcement of that

http://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2009/02/msg00070.html

> I'm not paid to do QA on Debian.

me neither.

> The purpose of this thread is not to improve Debian Live.

fair enough. i stop reading here then.

Regards,
Daniel

--
Address: Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist
Email: daniel.baumann@panthera-systems.net
Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/


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Old 02-17-2009, 08:03 AM
Filipus Klutiero
 
Default Should Debian Live be supported with lenny?

Le February 16, 2009 05:29:21 pm Daniel Baumann, vous avez écrit*:
> Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > You are aware that Debian Live lenny RC1 was released on *2009-02-09*?
>
> no, i didn't know that *kidding*
Eh, maybe I didn't know that lenny was about to be released then.
>
> > I did not see any announcement of that
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2009/02/msg00070.html
Like most people, I don't follow the debian-live mailing list regularly.
>
> > I'm not paid to do QA on Debian.
>
> me neither.
And I don't think I criticized you for not doing QA properly.
>
> > The purpose of this thread is not to improve Debian Live.
>
> fair enough. i stop reading here then.
So the first post "should not left be unanswered", but the second one isn't
even worth reading? Eh.

As lenny was already released, I reported the bugs except for the F8 issue and
the KDE error popup, which I didn't reproduce.


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