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Old 07-23-2008, 03:59 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default FHS and /var/www

Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Moving from /var/www to /srv/www gains nothing - We would still have
> all webservers throwing files where they are not supposed to, to a
> user-managed directory.

There's a large difference between Debian as a whole violating the FHS
by using a nonstandard top-level directory in /var, and individual
violating the FHS by writing files to /srv in a manner that the FHS
doesn't allow. The current situation is a black eye in our claims to
take the FHS seriously. /srv-abusing packages would be RC-buggy.

--
see shy jo
 
Old 07-23-2008, 04:09 PM
Joey Hess
 
Default FHS and /var/www

FHS:
| Applications must generally not add directories to the top level of /var. Such
| directories should only be added if they have some system-wide implication, and
| in consultation with the FHS mailing list.

Stephen Gran wrote:
> /var/www is not actually explicitly forbidden, just implicitly forbidden.
> It seems the relevant bit is the bit you quoted, which just says that
> we shouldn't be placing new top level directories under /var unless they
> have a system wide implication. In my view, a coordinated place to put
> web apps meets that criteria for Debian, so the only thing we're missing
> is a mail to the FHS list saying Debian would like to use that spot for
> this purpose.[0]

That's an interesting reading of the FHS text. I think it's much more
likely to be talking about toplevel /var directories being added to the FHS,
not to an individual distribution.

> I personally don't
> see it as a net gain, but I'm willing to be convinced. I personally
> think it would be simpler to send the mail to the FHS list announcing
> that we plan to keep shipping things there, and ask them to add a
> footnote that some distros might use that directory.[1]

The idea that you shoot off a list saying "eh, Debian would like to violate the
FHS now" and get back a "oh, fine we put in a footnote, so you're still FHS
compliant" does not match anything I've observed re the FHS.

--
see shy jo
 
Old 07-23-2008, 04:41 PM
Gunnar Wolf
 
Default FHS and /var/www

Joey Hess dijo [Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:59:05AM -0400]:
> Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > Moving from /var/www to /srv/www gains nothing - We would still have
> > all webservers throwing files where they are not supposed to, to a
> > user-managed directory.
>
> There's a large difference between Debian as a whole violating the FHS
> by using a nonstandard top-level directory in /var, and individual
> violating the FHS by writing files to /srv in a manner that the FHS
> doesn't allow. The current situation is a black eye in our claims to
> take the FHS seriously. /srv-abusing packages would be RC-buggy.

Still, I don't see a clear way out of this. We are violating FHS
either for putting files in /var/www or in /srv/www or in
/srv/default-site or whatever.

What could be a course of action is that all webservers ship (as I
described I am doing earlier on) their default sites in
/usr/share/<package>/default-site, and instead of an "It works!" or
similar page, information on what steps should the user take to turn
it into something useful.

--
Gunnar Wolf - gwolf@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244
PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF


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Old 07-23-2008, 06:29 PM
Loïc Minier
 
Default FHS and /var/www

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008, Joey Hess wrote:
> I think that there's room for Debian to establish distro-wide policies
> for the *default* directories in /srv, as a suppliment to the FHS.

I don't see the need for taking the risk of FHS non-compliance.

Why not use a new package for such policies?

e.g. a new "services" or "debian-services" package would allow storing
services below "/var/lib/services/<service domain name>" or
"/var/lib/services/<service type>/<name>". We could make this location
configurable in the "services" package and allow admins to host new
services below /srv if they like. The "services" package would provide
hook to install / remove services which would abstract away the real
location where the admin wants the files to appear and packages would
symlink their packaged data into this location.

--
Loïc Minier


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Old 07-24-2008, 09:52 AM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default FHS and /var/www

]] Gunnar Wolf

| What could be a course of action is that all webservers ship (as I
| described I am doing earlier on) their default sites in
| /usr/share/<package>/default-site, and instead of an "It works!" or
| similar page, information on what steps should the user take to turn
| it into something useful.

FWIW, this is roughly what we're going to do with Apache post-lenny.

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 07-24-2008, 12:40 PM
Stephen Gran
 
Default FHS and /var/www

This one time, at band camp, Joey Hess said:
> The idea that you shoot off a list saying "eh, Debian would like to violate the
> FHS now" and get back a "oh, fine we put in a footnote, so you're still FHS
> compliant" does not match anything I've observed re the FHS.

That was sort of the point of the footnote
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| ,'`. Stephen Gran |
| : :' : sgran@debian.org |
| `. `' Debian user, admin, and developer |
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-----------------------------------------------------------------
 
Old 07-28-2008, 07:21 PM
Patrick Matthäi
 
Default FHS and /var/www

Carl Fürstenberg schrieb:
> FHS 2.3 specifies in
> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#SRVDATAFORSERVICESPROVIDEDBYSYSTEM
> to use /srv for "Data for services provided by this system", for
> example /srv/www for web root.
> In the policy, the section
> 9.1.1(http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#s9.1.1)
> specifies that FHS 2.3 is mandatory, except for some exception, and
> the use of /var/www isn't included in that list.
>
> Should we force all httpd:s to use /srv/www instead of /var/www, or
> should an exception to the policy be added? Per
> http://wiki.debian.org/Apache2LennyGoals it states that apache2 has
> support for /srv/www, but it's still defaulting to /var/www.
>

Hello,

I fully agree with you, but there are some problems.

1) lintian states that packagers should add a regular httpd config file
which should work on most http-daemons - this is in my opinion garbage
and not user friendly.

2) lintian also states (yes against lintian) that the packagers
shouldn't point symlinks or anything like that in / from
/var/www/<package> but they should add instructions (in README.Debian)
for the administator how he could set up his web application, this is
also not very user friendly..

Yes the FHS says, that such data has to be places in /srv/ so what have
we to do? We should NOT go the user unfriendly way and place at every
webapp-package some README.Debian files, we should migrate after lenny
from /var/www to /srv/www - I think it will solve the issue with less
user problems.

--
/*
Mit freundlichem Gruß / With kind regards,
Patrick Matthäi

E-Mail: patrick.matthaei@web.de

Comment:
Always if we think we are right,
we were maybe wrong.
*/


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